Skipping Maintenance Renewal

Andrew,
Clients are a mix of XP Pro and Vista, with Server 2008 on the backend. No Win 7 yet (waiting for SP1, ironic I know!).

Mike,
I didn't say Microsoft exhaustively tests, I simply said Epicor doesn't.

I have had very few issues with Microsoft hotfixes and service packs. You have a point, they may have invented service packs and hotfixes <tangent> Not so sure it's fair to say Microsoft invented hotfixes, the term "patch" stems from punch card days </tangent>), and the $64,000 question is, why were those fixes necessary in the first place? But in my experience, those fixes did in fact "fix" without breaking previously "good" functionality. I have had very bad luck with Symantec "fixes". Liveupdate is definately disabled.

It is not my intention to vehemently defend Microsoft, but I think on the whole, they have a good support model. The knowledgebase is free, and they sponsor Technet and MSDN, and all sorts of blogs with moderators / posters directly employed by Microsoft. If you need to escalate an issue, and open a ticket with a Microsoft engineer, the costs are not exorbitant.

In my opinion, by disabling Automatic Updates, you do so at your own peril. With all the security exploits out there (yeah I know, why are they out there?), and more discovered everyday, you're better off applying the high priority updates rather then be left exposed. Unless of course you can eliminate internet access. If you deploy a Windows Server Update Services server, you can select the product lines and levels you want updated with a good deal of granularity. But to each his own.

I think we can all agree that when you introduce vast amounts of complexity, previously unforseen interactions will occur. These issues are general to software development, and no vendor is immune. Software fixes aren't going away anytime soon. It's been my experience that certain vendors tackle the issue of continued support after the sale better than others. While they are certainly not at the top of my list, Microsoft ranks higher relative to Epicor on my personal list.
Jared


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Best" <abest@...> wrote:
>
> What are you guys running? Windows 98? Vista and Win 7 have had very few issues.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
> Andrew Best
>
> Kice Industries, Inc.
>
> P(316)744-7151
>
> F(316)295-2412
>
>
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vic Drecchio
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:03 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Skipping Maintenance Renewal
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike... hahaha...... I soooooo agree with you.
>
> I turn off Automatic Updates.
>
> And wait, didn't Microsoft invent the term "Service Pack" and "Hotfix"?
>
> I believe so.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Mike Lowe
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:27 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Skipping Maintenance Renewal
>
> Microsoft tests exhaustively prior to release? Since when? I may be unique here, but I've had FAR more issues with software breaks coming from Microsoft updates (all product lines) than from updates from Epicor. But then, this could be related to the number of updates MS releases to fix it's buggy, bloated software.
>
> I'm just sayin...
>

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "k99ja04" <jallmond@...> wrote:
>
> No, upgrades / implementation are extra. Many on here (myself included) are frustrated that each update is not exhaustively tested prior to release. It is not uncommon for an update to break something that was previously fixed. You can't think of Epicor's updates like Service Packs from Microsoft. Each upgrade may only be a small step according to their versioning scheme, but you really need to have a sandbox test environment to test all the functionality and your reports before going live. We're on 8.03.408B, and are still waiting for inventory adjustments on pack slips to work when shipped from manufactured inventory. This should have worked from the beginning, and if I drop maintenance, and it's fixed in 409, then I miss out. Epicor should take a lesson from Microsoft and treat this as a patch/hotfix.
>
> That being said, I am very happy with the level of support I receive when I open a specific trouble ticket. I don't know what the earmarked funds breakdown is for upgrades versus per incident support, but I wound prefer to pay for each ticket as I need, and for each upgrade as I need it. Epicor could offer an upgrade license, where the pricing would be appropriate to what my current version it, to how many leaps up the ladder I want to go. Hmmmm, seems like I've seen that model before... oh yeah Microsoft! Listening Epicor?
>
we pay close to 70k annually, though we have 60 user licenses.




________________________________
From: Chris Thompson <chriselectrix@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 3:56:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal


Does Epicor do all your upgrades (ie install the upgrades etc) in with that price?

____________ _________ _________ __
From: xorone <xorone@yahoo. com>
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Tue, 26 January, 2010 8:47:36
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal


our annual contract is ~$16,000 for 11 full & 10 data licenses.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
His response was lawyerly vague (but free) and echoes Dina's comment about the license agreement prohibiting talking.
-----------
"My strong guess is that there is no law restricting purchasers from sharing the price they pay, which is why I'm a little surprised that there isn't some sort of confidentiality/non-disclosure provision in the agreements. I would think that the sellers would want to force buyers to keep their deal terms to themselves. "
-----------
On maintenance that's a little less important because it's a straight formula and known to any current customer - unless you got a special deal then probably better to keep it confidential.

Dropping support would not be my choice and I would not advise any site to do so except under the most dire need but... if enough sites do (or have) for their own reasons it might prompt Epicor to reconsider the pricing model.

-Todd C.


________________________________
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Rose
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal



I do know enough to know that buyers can illegally collude. Of course, it is way more common for sellers to collude. Again, I don't know if these particular discussions are a problem, but I thought it was worth raising the issue.

I'm near Seattle, so if your son tries to bill you, tell him I'll buy him a beer the next time I see him.

Thom Rose
Controller
Electric Mirror LLC
HOTEL LUXURY

"The World Leader in Back-lit Mirrors & Mirror TV Technology"

T 425 776-4946
A 11831 Beverly Park Rd, Bldg D, Everett, WA 98204 USA
www.electricmirror.com<http://www.electricmirror.com>

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Todd Caughey
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:45 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal

Not an attorney, but I don't thinks buyers can collude. Independent sellers certainly could be in a pinch for comparing their rates or fixing them based on conversations between them.... but not the buyers, they can't "set" anything.

I shot a quick email to my son, an attorney in Seattle, to ask him. Of course being a lawyer he'll probably bill me for the answer. ;)

-Todd C.

________________________________
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Thomas Rose
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:23 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal

Is it legal to ask what price others are paying or to share that information? I'm not an attorney, but I think this could, conceivably, be considered price collusion, especially if there is any discussion of future price negotiations with Epicor. Perhaps there is an attorney on this exchange who can clarify the law?

Thom Rose
Controller
Electric Mirror LLC
HOTEL LUXURY

"The World Leader in Back-lit Mirrors & Mirror TV Technology"

T 425 776-4946
A 11831 Beverly Park Rd, Bldg D, Everett, WA 98204 USA
www.electricmirror.com<http://www.electricmirror.com>

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Chris Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:16 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal

The phrases 'over a barrel' springs to mind.

It might be worth speaking to them to look at alternatives such as paying monthly to ease the load from one payment.

Just out of interest, what sort of price are you all paying for maintenance?

________________________________
From: Lin <plmidnightpassage@...<mailto:plmidnightpassage%40yahoo.com><mailto:plmidnightpassage%40yahoo.com><mailto:plmidnightpassage%40yahoo.com><mailto:plmidnightpassage%40yahoo.com>>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, 25 January, 2010 18:56:43
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal

This is very true. My co-worker said that if you decide not to renew their maintenance. You get no support until you pay for all backward renewal.

Peace and tranquility,

Lin

--- On Mon, 1/25/10, Ned <TechnoBabbly@ gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ned <TechnoBabbly@ gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Date: Monday, January 25, 2010, 12:19 PM

Short answer, yes you will get stung.

Longer answer,

While I am not 100% positive about this, I THINK that next year you will

have to pay the back maintinance from this year when you pay, since

technically I do not think you are allowed to let maintinance to lapse.

I remember talking to a couple customers that there were 6.1(or earlier)

customers who let Maintinance lapse, and then when it came to upgrade to

8.03 because they wanted certain features and abilities, they were given

the option of paying for all previous years of lapsed maintinance, or be

considered a "new customer" so they were not eligable for certain discounts

that Epicor was offering at the time for "upgrading" as an existing

customer, however it did work out to the advantage in terms of money for

this customer to become a new customer.

> From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com] On Behalf

> Of k99ja04

> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:10 PM

> To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

> Subject: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal

>

>

>

> In order to save on costs, we're considering not paying maintenance for

> 2010. I know it's not ideal, but in this economy we're just trying to keep

> the doors open. Has anyone skipped a year before? Is Epicor going to sting

> me next year with an inflated amount?

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must

> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )

> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and

> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:

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> (2) To search through old msg's goto:

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> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:

> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ linksYahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This thread has been an interesting read. I wouldn't mind the cost of maintenance if Epicor would fix the problems in their software in the Version that you are
running. Isn't that what you are paying maintenance for? Lately all I hear from the techs is that it has been fixed in Epicor 9 and it will not be fixed in your version. I am running 8,03.408b, one level behind Epicor 9.
On the subject of cancelling and then coming back at a later time when times are better. I have been using Epicors Classic since 85 and they stopped supporting it wanting everyone to upgrade to Vantage or Vista. It was expensive at that time also. since they weren't going to support it with upgrades I did cancel my support. the only thing we had to do was pay them for W2 updates, a one time charge. After many years of the sales force trying to get me to upgrade I did. There were no additional charges tacked on because I stopped maintenance on Classic. I think they were happy to get the sale before the end of the year. I was off Classic maintenance for at least 10 years, they still had all my history so I don't think I was treated as a new customer. But upgrading at the end of the year did save some cash.

Gary Wojtowicz
AJR Industries, Inc.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I paid $33,000 this year. Over the past 15 years I am sure I have paid an additional 3 times the actual software licenses acquired initially.. I'm thinking software development verses parts manufacturing is perhaps a little more lucrative



________________________________
From: xorone <xorone@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 3:47:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal


our annual contract is ~$16,000 for 11 full & 10 data licenses.





__________________________________________________________________
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How many users was that for?




________________________________
From: Molson <an_ex_molson@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 28 January, 2010 16:51:29
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal

Â
I paid $33,000 this year. Over the past 15 years I am sure I have paid an additional 3 times the actual software licenses acquired initially.. I'm thinking software development verses parts manufacturing is perhaps a little more lucrative

____________ _________ _________ __
From: xorone <xorone@yahoo. com>
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 3:47:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Skipping Maintenance Renewal

our annual contract is ~$16,000 for 11 full & 10 data licenses.

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I feel the need to respond to Gary's e-mail. I don't know about the rest of you, but we are not ready to go to Epicor 9 yet. I have argued that response about fixing items in Epcior 9 and not Vantage 8. I guess it depends on the difficulty of the fix, because I have had one item fixed in Vantage 8 and one not fixed in Vantage 8.
What I am saying is we should not accept their response to make all the fixes in Epicor 9. If they stop supporting Vantage 8, specifically fixes, then how do we justify paying maintenance for Vantage 8?

Thank you,

Stephen Schaefer
Abrams Airborne


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wojtowicz" <ajrgary@...> wrote:
>
> This thread has been an interesting read. I wouldn't mind the cost of maintenance if Epicor would fix the problems in their software in the Version that you are
> running. Isn't that what you are paying maintenance for? Lately all I hear from the techs is that it has been fixed in Epicor 9 and it will not be fixed in your version. I am running 8,03.408b, one level behind Epicor 9.
> On the subject of cancelling and then coming back at a later time when times are better. I have been using Epicors Classic since 85 and they stopped supporting it wanting everyone to upgrade to Vantage or Vista. It was expensive at that time also. since they weren't going to support it with upgrades I did cancel my support. the only thing we had to do was pay them for W2 updates, a one time charge. After many years of the sales force trying to get me to upgrade I did. There were no additional charges tacked on because I stopped maintenance on Classic. I think they were happy to get the sale before the end of the year. I was off Classic maintenance for at least 10 years, they still had all my history so I don't think I was treated as a new customer. But upgrading at the end of the year did save some cash.
>
> Gary Wojtowicz
> AJR Industries, Inc.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
We almost did not renew maintenance with them this year. Decided to at the
last minute because I had not been able to fully research third party
support companies for Vantage. Running V8.803.405B. What am I getting for
maintenance, not much. A third party support company cost less and I have a
feeling I would get better support from them.

Hearing this "Lately all I hear from the techs is that it has been fixed in
Epicor 9 and it will not be fixed in your version." Is a bunch of bullshit.
You pay for support to FIX THE PROBLEM ON THE VERSION YOU ARE USING. And if
that is the way Epicor wants to approach this then I for one, and it sounds
like many of us, are going to stop paying for support since it is painfully
obvious we are not getting the support we are paying for.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Snake
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 11:08 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Skipping Maintenance Renewal

I feel the need to respond to Gary's e-mail. I don't know about the rest of
you, but we are not ready to go to Epicor 9 yet. I have argued that
response about fixing items in Epcior 9 and not Vantage 8. I guess it
depends on the difficulty of the fix, because I have had one item fixed in
Vantage 8 and one not fixed in Vantage 8.
What I am saying is we should not accept their response to make all the
fixes in Epicor 9. If they stop supporting Vantage 8, specifically fixes,
then how do we justify paying maintenance for Vantage 8?

Thank you,

Stephen Schaefer
Abrams Airborne


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wojtowicz" <ajrgary@...> wrote:
>
> This thread has been an interesting read. I wouldn't mind the cost of
maintenance if Epicor would fix the problems in their software in the
Version that you are
> running. Isn't that what you are paying maintenance for? Lately all I hear
from the techs is that it has been fixed in Epicor 9 and it will not be
fixed in your version. I am running 8,03.408b, one level behind Epicor 9.
> On the subject of cancelling and then coming back at a later time when
times are better. I have been using Epicors Classic since 85 and they
stopped supporting it wanting everyone to upgrade to Vantage or Vista. It
was expensive at that time also. since they weren't going to support it with
upgrades I did cancel my support. the only thing we had to do was pay them
for W2 updates, a one time charge. After many years of the sales force
trying to get me to upgrade I did. There were no additional charges tacked
on because I stopped maintenance on Classic. I think they were happy to get
the sale before the end of the year. I was off Classic maintenance for at
least 10 years, they still had all my history so I don't think I was treated
as a new customer. But upgrading at the end of the year did save some cash.
>
> Gary Wojtowicz
> AJR Industries, Inc.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




------------------------------------

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