MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Yahoo Archive
1
I have heard, from someone who should know, that Vantage is written
over a load of 4GL code which works directly with Progress. Epicor
are rewriting this code in a non-database specific form and hope to
have it ready for v9 late next year. V9 will also have much improved
financials as much of the iScala functionality will also be
incorporated.

Because of the current 4GL code, when working on SQL Vantage actually
asks Progress for the data as normal, but Progress then runs ODBC
queries off the SQL database.

One of the engineers looking after us is currently involved in an SQL
installation. His opinion is that SQL is slower than Progress because
of this.




--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Thomas" <dthomas@...> wrote:
>
> My own opinion is that the SQL database will dominate at Epicor in
> the not too distant future. Progress Software has been emphasizing
> their development tools and app server technology in the past few
> years, realizing that SQL Server and Oracle have become the
industry
> standards for database technology. I have done benchmarking on the
> performance of Vantage 8 on SQL and Progress and have not seen
> significant differences. This is consistent with everything I have
> heard from the technical people at Epicor. I do believe that the
> server hardware specs published by Epicor for SQL are on the low
> side. SQL runs better with lots of RAM. Also, according to Epicor,
> 8.03.400 will support native access to SQL, I assume without the
> schema holders, so any small performance advantgage currently held
> by Progress will probably disappear in the near future.
>
> Further down the road in version 9, Epicor is going to consolidate
> their Enterprise (non-manufacturing) ERP product onto the Vantage
> platform. That user base is 100% SQL. I don't think many of them
> are going to convert to Progress, so within a few years, the
> majority of Epicor users will be on SQL, not Progress. I don't
> doubt that Progress is a very competent database, but the toolset
> that comes with SQL (including the ODBC driver) is far superior to
> what you get with Progress, and the advantages of being on the
> industry standard database are huge.
>
>
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Claggett" <jason@> wrote:
> >
> > Bruce,
> >
> >
> >
> > There are some Progress "connectors" (Epicor refers to them as
> schema
> > holders) that are put in the mfgsys803/db folder that do the
> > redirecting. Although the performance hit is not as bad as it was
> in V6,
> > this is just another place where something can break and another
> step in
> > the troubleshooting process when there is a problem.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bottom line is, Epicor development needs to write individual
> connection
> > interfaces for each type of database they want to support
> otherwise you
> > will always be a slave to Progress.
> >
> >
> >
> > Most of our customers go with Progress, but there have been a
> couple
> > that have chosen SQL - mostly because they had the SQL knowledge
> > already. One of them actually PAID Epicor to convert their data
> from SQL
> > to Progress after they went live because it was running way too
> slow.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> > Jason Claggett
> >
> > Microsoft Small Business Specialist
> >
> > MCP #3856159
> >
> > 2W Technologies, LLC
> >
> > 312.533.4033 x8039
> >
> > jason@
> >
> >
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of Bruce Butler
> > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 8:46 AM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
> >
> >
> >
> > I asked our customer rep this exact question. His official (maybe
> > unofficial, not sure) stance was Epicor and Progress have deep
> roots,
> > and in no way was Epicor going to stray away from Progress.
> >
> > He also stated even though the working platform is SQL for those
> who
> > chose SQL, Progress is still conducting the flow. I do not know
> what or
> > how that works technically. There is actually a performance hit
> due to
> > this. So the SQL install should at least theoretically run slower
> than
> > Progress setup.
> >
> > It seems the majority of the newer features incorporated from
> Epicor
> > buy-outs run on MS-SQL. With that, I have to wonder for how long
> will
> > the core product be able to stand up to the pressure of the SQL
> add-ons.
> > Eventually it seems either the addons or the core will need to be
> > rewritten for a unified platform.
> >
> > Bruce Butler
> >
> > IT Manager
> >
> > Knappe & Koester, Inc.
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
> > [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%
> 40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
> > Behalf Of
> > Todd Anderson
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
> > To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
> > Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
> >
> > Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress
> for the
> > DB
> > under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.
> >
> > V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.
> >
> > With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants
to
> > go...
> >
> > At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
> > Progress.
> > Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
> > Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
> > performance
> > issues.
> >
> > A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL
and
> the
> > sales
> > rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
> > wondering if that was the right decision.
> >
> > Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to
play
> out
> > over
> > the next 5 years?
> >
> > As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install
> Progress
> > and
> > then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.
> >
> > Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Todd Anderson
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
2
Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson
3
Hi Todd,

From what I have heard Epicor will be moving more towards MS-SQL with
the release Epicor 9, which I believe is sometime next year? However,
I also understand that it will still Progress for some functionality.

Thanks,
David

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Anderson" <todd.anderson@...>
wrote:
>
> Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress
for the DB
> under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.
>
> V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.
>
> With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
go...
>
> At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
Progress.
> Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
> Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
performance
> issues.
>
> A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and
the sales
> rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
> wondering if that was the right decision.
>
> Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play
out over
> the next 5 years?
>
> As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install
Progress and
> then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.
>
> Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd Anderson
>
4
SQL vs. Progress should be handled at the discovery process.

Every company has its own reasons, size of db, number of users, speed, etc. They both work fine.

Larger companies will find it more usefull to go with SQL because of its cross platform use that they will need to run the business.

Either way it all comes down to how much and how many resources each company is willing to put into their IT and ERP solution.

Both solutions will work fine but SQL will give more options, for a cost, in the end.

Kevin Kadamus
Senior IT/ERP specialist
850 398 1941
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Todd Anderson" <todd.anderson@...>

Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:58:42
To:"'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'" <vantage@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond


Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson
5
Crystal ball notwithstanding, the technical answer will depend upon whether
Epicor intends to rewrite the business tier logic on something other than
Open Edge. A new customer is ideally positioned to make such an inquiry of
Epicor development as a pretext for making a decision on database selection.



As for sales not mentioning Progress as an alternative, perhaps your
customer should ask if sales makes an additional commission on the SQL
Server license.



Regards,



Michael



Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
<http://www.aspacia.com/> http://www.aspacia.com/




From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6
I would not expect them to re-write or move away from the OpenEdge
middleware anytime soon.



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Michael Barry
Sent: 07 August 2007 20:40
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



Crystal ball notwithstanding, the technical answer will depend upon
whether
Epicor intends to rewrite the business tier logic on something other
than
Open Edge. A new customer is ideally positioned to make such an inquiry
of
Epicor development as a pretext for making a decision on database
selection.

As for sales not mentioning Progress as an alternative, perhaps your
customer should ask if sales makes an additional commission on the SQL
Server license.

Regards,

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
<http://www.aspacia.com/> http://www.aspacia.com/

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the
DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7
Michael,



That reply was down right cynical on your part.



I think I've missed that part of your personality, even if it doesn't answer
the question.



So, technically and/or politically - which do you think will WIN out in the
end and why?



Todd



_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Barry
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 2:40 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



Crystal ball notwithstanding, the technical answer will depend upon whether
Epicor intends to rewrite the business tier logic on something other than
Open Edge. A new customer is ideally positioned to make such an inquiry of
Epicor development as a pretext for making a decision on database selection.

As for sales not mentioning Progress as an alternative, perhaps your
customer should ask if sales makes an additional commission on the SQL
Server license.

Regards,

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
<http://www.aspacia <http://www.aspacia.com/> com/> http://www.aspacia
<http://www.aspacia.com/> com/

From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
8
Todd,



I'll throw my 2 cents out there. As long as Epicor will be supporting
Unix/Linux platforms I don't see them going away from Progress/OpenEdge.
Also, I'm of the opinion any large/International software ERP company
that ONLY supports one database platform is limiting their potential
market share and thus minimizing potential profit.



I just don't see Progress going away. However, I see, hopefully,
improved support for SQL Server and would hope Epicor would do a better
job of documenting problem resolution like they do with the Progress
database.



Thanks,



Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@...



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 12:59 PM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the
DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9
I hope Progress does not "go away". The stability and relative lack of need for administrative overhead has been a real blessing. I don't have the time (or skills) to do a lot of "programming" and need hooks into MS products and other tools so we run pretty much "out of the box". Progress is perfect for this and pretty much takes care of everything for me....it's the Mac of DBs. From my little dealings with SQL Server for FRx and some other apps it would "break the camel's back" in terms of added work just to keep things running.

Besides....we bought Vantage 4.0 "with database"....if Epicor were to abandon Progress is there any chance they would provide SQL Server as a part of the upgrade, covered under our maintenance & support fees? I doubt Microsoft would cut a deal with them to allow this.

-Todd C.

________________________________
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Claggett
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:22 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond


Todd,

I'll throw my 2 cents out there. As long as Epicor will be supporting
Unix/Linux platforms I don't see them going away from Progress/OpenEdge.
Also, I'm of the opinion any large/International software ERP company
that ONLY supports one database platform is limiting their potential
market share and thus minimizing potential profit.

I just don't see Progress going away. However, I see, hopefully,
improved support for SQL Server and would hope Epicor would do a better
job of documenting problem resolution like they do with the Progress
database.

Thanks,

Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@...<mailto:jason%402wtech.com>

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 12:59 PM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the
DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________
The information contained in this E-mail message and any documents which may be attached are privileged and confidential, and may be protected from disclosure.

Please be aware that any use, printing, copying, disclosure or dissemination of this communication may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. If you think you have received this message in error, please reply to the sender.

For more information please visit www.harveyvogel.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
10
I think Jason made a great point. "...I'm of the opinion any
large/International software ERP company that ONLY supports one database
platform is limiting their potential market share and thus minimizing
potential profit." Progress isn't going anywhere. But then again this
is Epicor ;) .



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Todd Caughey
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:00 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



I hope Progress does not "go away". The stability and relative lack of
need for administrative overhead has been a real blessing. I don't have
the time (or skills) to do a lot of "programming" and need hooks into MS
products and other tools so we run pretty much "out of the box".
Progress is perfect for this and pretty much takes care of everything
for me....it's the Mac of DBs. From my little dealings with SQL Server
for FRx and some other apps it would "break the camel's back" in terms
of added work just to keep things running.

Besides....we bought Vantage 4.0 "with database"....if Epicor were to
abandon Progress is there any chance they would provide SQL Server as a
part of the upgrade, covered under our maintenance & support fees? I
doubt Microsoft would cut a deal with them to allow this.

-Todd C.

________________________________
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Jason Claggett
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:22 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Todd,

I'll throw my 2 cents out there. As long as Epicor will be supporting
Unix/Linux platforms I don't see them going away from Progress/OpenEdge.
Also, I'm of the opinion any large/International software ERP company
that ONLY supports one database platform is limiting their potential
market share and thus minimizing potential profit.

I just don't see Progress going away. However, I see, hopefully,
improved support for SQL Server and would hope Epicor would do a better
job of documenting problem resolution like they do with the Progress
database.

Thanks,

Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@... <mailto:jason%402wtech.com> <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>]
On Behalf
Of Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 12:59 PM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the
DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________
The information contained in this E-mail message and any documents which
may be attached are privileged and confidential, and may be protected
from disclosure.

Please be aware that any use, printing, copying, disclosure or
dissemination of this communication may be subject to legal restriction
or sanction. If you think you have received this message in error,
please reply to the sender.

For more information please visit www.harveyvogel.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11
The same could be said on the client side - any large / international
software ERP company that only supports clients on one platform is
limiting their potential...

Apparently this doesn't seem to be bother Epicor. Why would it be a
limiting factor on the server side? I like Progress - stable, zero
admin after setup. However, Epicor's choice to force client lock-in on
Windows was a mistake. Vantage is only an ERP system - it bothers me
that they have made it the driving factor for hardware and OS
requirements on the client (steeper requirements than our 3D CAD
workstations).


Chris Gitzlaff
Major Industries


Paul V. Blais wrote:
>
> I think Jason made a great point. "...I'm of the opinion any
> large/International software ERP company that ONLY supports one database
> platform is limiting their potential market share and thus minimizing
> potential profit." Progress isn't going anywhere. But then again this
> is Epicor ;) .
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf
> Of Todd Caughey
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:00 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
> I hope Progress does not "go away". The stability and relative lack of
> need for administrative overhead has been a real blessing. I don't have
> the time (or skills) to do a lot of "programming" and need hooks into MS
> products and other tools so we run pretty much "out of the box".
> Progress is perfect for this and pretty much takes care of everything
> for me....it's the Mac of DBs. From my little dealings with SQL Server
> for FRx and some other apps it would "break the camel's back" in terms
> of added work just to keep things running.
>
> Besides....we bought Vantage 4.0 "with database"....if Epicor were to
> abandon Progress is there any chance they would provide SQL Server as a
> part of the upgrade, covered under our maintenance & support fees? I
> doubt Microsoft would cut a deal with them to allow this.
>
> -Todd C.
>
> ________________________________
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf Of Jason Claggett
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:22 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
> Todd,
>
> I'll throw my 2 cents out there. As long as Epicor will be supporting
> Unix/Linux platforms I don't see them going away from Progress/OpenEdge.
> Also, I'm of the opinion any large/International software ERP company
> that ONLY supports one database platform is limiting their potential
> market share and thus minimizing potential profit.
>
> I just don't see Progress going away. However, I see, hopefully,
> improved support for SQL Server and would hope Epicor would do a better
> job of documenting problem resolution like they do with the Progress
> database.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason Claggett
>
> Microsoft Small Business Specialist
>
> MCP #3856159
>
> 2W Technologies, LLC
>
> 312.533.4033 x8039
>
> jason@... <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
> <mailto:jason%402wtech.com> <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>]
> On Behalf
> Of Todd Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 12:59 PM
> To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
> Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
> Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the
> DB
> under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.
>
> V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.
>
> With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
> go...
>
> At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
> Progress.
> Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
> Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
> performance
> issues.
>
> A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
> sales
> rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
> wondering if that was the right decision.
>
> Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
> over
> the next 5 years?
>
> As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
> and
> then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.
>
> Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd Anderson
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ________________________________
> The information contained in this E-mail message and any documents which
> may be attached are privileged and confidential, and may be protected
> from disclosure.
>
> Please be aware that any use, printing, copying, disclosure or
> dissemination of this communication may be subject to legal restriction
> or sanction. If you think you have received this message in error,
> please reply to the sender.
>
> For more information please visit www.harveyvogel.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
12
Todd,



Ok, so it's more than fair to characterize my response as, say, a bit
circumspect. Stephen, Todd and others have quite eloquently stated what I
was implying about the likely technical outcome of the Vantage platform but
I'll try to address your question more directly.



As for which platform will "win out", I think that the answer is that the
contest was over before it started. Open Edge is absolutely required for
every installation of Vantage whereas SQL Server is merely an option.
Similarly, unless someone is willing to go through some onerous technical
contortions, some variety of Windows is a requirement on the workstation.
As a result, at least for the foreseeable future, the playing field is
likely to be decidedly tilted toward an Open Edge/Windows Vantage
implementation platform. To be sure, there are those organizations who, for
any variety of reasons, will chose to deploy upon SQL Server just as there
are those who will choose to deploy upon Unix/Linux. So, as I rather
obtusely implied, unless Epicor is willing to make the rather sizeable
investment to port the Vantage business logic to another application server
architecture, in the future the ratio of Vantage to Open Edge will be 1.
Game Over.



Sure, there are those who say that, even though Open Edge is required for
deploying the business logic, the choices for a data persistence layer for
Vantage are basically even. This contention is so obviously false as to
border on being deliberately misleading. Of course there are technical,
operational and political differences between SQL Server and Open Edge.
From a purely technical perspective, for reasons too numerous to detail
here, Progress is the vastly superior database for deploying Vista/Vantage
8.x. That isn't to say that SQL Server isn't a perfectly wonderful database
in its own right. It is. In fact, there are a legion of applications where
SQL Server is technically the database of choice. Vantage just doesn't
happen to be one of them. It is, therefore, fair to conclude that
organizations who chose to deploy Vantage on SQL Server do so out of other
considerations they find more compelling.



If what you are trying to discern is whether, in the future, a majority of
organizations will opt for the technically optimal deployment or have some
compelling reason to do otherwise, I can honestly tell you I have no clue.
Since your initial inquiry concerned a new deployment, I would advise that,
unless they have an overriding reason to do otherwise, Progress/OE is
currently the optimal deployment platform. If they do, however, have
compelling reasons otherwise, SQL Server is a viable, if not optimal,
alternative.



There.clear as day.



Michael



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 6:39 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



Michael,

That reply was down right cynical on your part.

I think I've missed that part of your personality, even if it doesn't answer
the question.

So, technically and/or politically - which do you think will WIN out in the
end and why?

Todd

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of
Michael Barry
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 2:40 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Crystal ball notwithstanding, the technical answer will depend upon whether
Epicor intends to rewrite the business tier logic on something other than
Open Edge. A new customer is ideally positioned to make such an inquiry of
Epicor development as a pretext for making a decision on database selection.

As for sales not mentioning Progress as an alternative, perhaps your
customer should ask if sales makes an additional commission on the SQL
Server license.

Regards,

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
<http://www.aspacia <http://www.aspacia.com/> com/> http://www.aspacia
<http://www.aspacia.com/> com/

From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
13
Michael,



Thanks for the reply - If logic prevails so might Progress.



Todd



_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Barry
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 1:24 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



Todd,

Ok, so it's more than fair to characterize my response as, say, a bit
circumspect. Stephen, Todd and others have quite eloquently stated what I
was implying about the likely technical outcome of the Vantage platform but
I'll try to address your question more directly.

As for which platform will "win out", I think that the answer is that the
contest was over before it started. Open Edge is absolutely required for
every installation of Vantage whereas SQL Server is merely an option.
Similarly, unless someone is willing to go through some onerous technical
contortions, some variety of Windows is a requirement on the workstation.
As a result, at least for the foreseeable future, the playing field is
likely to be decidedly tilted toward an Open Edge/Windows Vantage
implementation platform. To be sure, there are those organizations who, for
any variety of reasons, will chose to deploy upon SQL Server just as there
are those who will choose to deploy upon Unix/Linux. So, as I rather
obtusely implied, unless Epicor is willing to make the rather sizeable
investment to port the Vantage business logic to another application server
architecture, in the future the ratio of Vantage to Open Edge will be 1.
Game Over.

Sure, there are those who say that, even though Open Edge is required for
deploying the business logic, the choices for a data persistence layer for
Vantage are basically even. This contention is so obviously false as to
border on being deliberately misleading. Of course there are technical,
operational and political differences between SQL Server and Open Edge.
From a purely technical perspective, for reasons too numerous to detail
here, Progress is the vastly superior database for deploying Vista/Vantage
8.x. That isn't to say that SQL Server isn't a perfectly wonderful database
in its own right. It is. In fact, there are a legion of applications where
SQL Server is technically the database of choice. Vantage just doesn't
happen to be one of them. It is, therefore, fair to conclude that
organizations who chose to deploy Vantage on SQL Server do so out of other
considerations they find more compelling.

If what you are trying to discern is whether, in the future, a majority of
organizations will opt for the technically optimal deployment or have some
compelling reason to do otherwise, I can honestly tell you I have no clue.
Since your initial inquiry concerned a new deployment, I would advise that,
unless they have an overriding reason to do otherwise, Progress/OE is
currently the optimal deployment platform. If they do, however, have
compelling reasons otherwise, SQL Server is a viable, if not optimal,
alternative.

There.clear as day.

Michael

From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 6:39 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Michael,

That reply was down right cynical on your part.

I think I've missed that part of your personality, even if it doesn't answer
the question.

So, technically and/or politically - which do you think will WIN out in the
end and why?

Todd

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of
Michael Barry
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 2:40 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Crystal ball notwithstanding, the technical answer will depend upon whether
Epicor intends to rewrite the business tier logic on something other than
Open Edge. A new customer is ideally positioned to make such an inquiry of
Epicor development as a pretext for making a decision on database selection.

As for sales not mentioning Progress as an alternative, perhaps your
customer should ask if sales makes an additional commission on the SQL
Server license.

Regards,

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
<http://www.aspacia <http://www.aspacia <http://www.aspacia.com/> com/>
com/> http://www.aspacia
<http://www.aspacia <http://www.aspacia.com/> com/> com/

From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
14
Chris,



While there are other client operating systems out there in the market
(really only MAC and Linux), Windows XP and Windows 2000 make up 87% of
the entire market (for 2007). I would be crazy if I focused a lot of my
production time developing a client app for Linux and/or MAC when - I'm
guessing here - 99% of my customers run some flavor of Windows XP or
Windows 2000. Sure Vantage/Vista 8 requires XP SP 2 in order to run
properly, but XP was 83% of the workstation market and going forward,
Windows Vista will be able to run the new client.



I don't know to many shops that have enough technical savvy people to
put a MAC or Linux workstation at every location and have people
navigate around. While they both "look and feel" nice and are starting
to become more like Windows, the effort to support and maintain these
two types of operating systems are hard to find and often expensive.
Sure you might have a couple of users that need MACs for design work,
etc, you can use other methods for accessing Vantage - terminal server,
Citrix, etc. would work great for these two client workstation
platforms.



Here's the link to the survey I found:
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2



Just my opinion, but Microsoft is doing the forcing, not Epicor. Epicor
is just trying to keep up with the curve.



Thanks,



Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@...



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Christopher Gitzlaff
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 10:03 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



The same could be said on the client side - any large / international
software ERP company that only supports clients on one platform is
limiting their potential...

Apparently this doesn't seem to be bother Epicor. Why would it be a
limiting factor on the server side? I like Progress - stable, zero
admin after setup. However, Epicor's choice to force client lock-in on
Windows was a mistake. Vantage is only an ERP system - it bothers me
that they have made it the driving factor for hardware and OS
requirements on the client (steeper requirements than our 3D CAD
workstations).

Chris Gitzlaff
Major Industries

Paul V. Blais wrote:
>
> I think Jason made a great point. "...I'm of the opinion any
> large/International software ERP company that ONLY supports one
database
> platform is limiting their potential market share and thus minimizing
> potential profit." Progress isn't going anywhere. But then again this
> is Epicor ;) .
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf
> Of Todd Caughey
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:00 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
> I hope Progress does not "go away". The stability and relative lack of
> need for administrative overhead has been a real blessing. I don't
have
> the time (or skills) to do a lot of "programming" and need hooks into
MS
> products and other tools so we run pretty much "out of the box".
> Progress is perfect for this and pretty much takes care of everything
> for me....it's the Mac of DBs. From my little dealings with SQL Server
> for FRx and some other apps it would "break the camel's back" in terms
> of added work just to keep things running.
>
> Besides....we bought Vantage 4.0 "with database"....if Epicor were to
> abandon Progress is there any chance they would provide SQL Server as
a
> part of the upgrade, covered under our maintenance & support fees? I
> doubt Microsoft would cut a deal with them to allow this.
>
> -Todd C.
>
> ________________________________
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf Of Jason Claggett
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:22 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
> Todd,
>
> I'll throw my 2 cents out there. As long as Epicor will be supporting
> Unix/Linux platforms I don't see them going away from
Progress/OpenEdge.
> Also, I'm of the opinion any large/International software ERP company
> that ONLY supports one database platform is limiting their potential
> market share and thus minimizing potential profit.
>
> I just don't see Progress going away. However, I see, hopefully,
> improved support for SQL Server and would hope Epicor would do a
better
> job of documenting problem resolution like they do with the Progress
> database.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason Claggett
>
> Microsoft Small Business Specialist
>
> MCP #3856159
>
> 2W Technologies, LLC
>
> 312.533.4033 x8039
>
> jason@... <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
<mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
> <mailto:jason%402wtech.com> <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>]
> On Behalf
> Of Todd Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 12:59 PM
> To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
> Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
> Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for
the
> DB
> under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.
>
> V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.
>
> With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
> go...
>
> At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
> Progress.
> Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
> Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
> performance
> issues.
>
> A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
> sales
> rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
> wondering if that was the right decision.
>
> Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
> over
> the next 5 years?
>
> As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
> and
> then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.
>
> Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd Anderson
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ________________________________
> The information contained in this E-mail message and any documents
which
> may be attached are privileged and confidential, and may be protected
> from disclosure.
>
> Please be aware that any use, printing, copying, disclosure or
> dissemination of this communication may be subject to legal
restriction
> or sanction. If you think you have received this message in error,
> please reply to the sender.
>
> For more information please visit www.harveyvogel.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
15
> While there are other client operating systems out there in the market
> (really only MAC and Linux), Windows XP and Windows 2000 make up 87% of
> the entire market (for 2007). I would be crazy if I focused a lot of my
> production time developing a client app for Linux and/or MAC when - I'm
> guessing here - 99% of my customers run some flavor of Windows XP or
> Windows 2000. Sure Vantage/Vista 8 requires XP SP 2 in order to run
> properly, but XP was 83% of the workstation market and going forward,
> Windows Vista will be able to run the new client.

...until there's a web-based client. One might come to the conclusion that one
would also be crazy to develop any client application that depends on a
particular operating system. Microsoft knows this and that explains the
efforts behind SharePoint and Office. The whole Information Worker program is
designed to make Office much more web-friendly.

Mark W.
16
Jason, I completely understand the point you're making - it is a valid
business argument. I believe this is a case of the chicken/egg
problem. Which came first? If there are no customers running Mac /
Linux no applications are written for them. If nobody writes
applications for Mac / Linux, nobody will use those OS's.

There are plenty of people that would love to break that 87%
stranglehold but are unable to do so because of application lock-in.
OSX (Mac) is a beautiful and stable OS that has been around longer than
Microsoft. The people that say Linux isn't ready for the desktop
haven't tried it within the past year. Obviously, if there is no
support for your critical business applications, there are going to be
issues - but that isn't an OS problem, that is a software vendor problem.

Epicor had a choice for version 8. They chose a "fat" client running on
a proprietary system. What about the web browser? There are any number
of multi-million dollar software companies whose primary application
interface is the web browser (SugarCRM, Salesforce.com, etc...). I
sincerely hope Epicor is working on something similar in addition to
their standard client, but I haven't heard even a hint that they plan to
do that.

Jason Claggett wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> While there are other client operating systems out there in the market
> (really only MAC and Linux), Windows XP and Windows 2000 make up 87% of
> the entire market (for 2007). I would be crazy if I focused a lot of my
> production time developing a client app for Linux and/or MAC when - I'm
> guessing here - 99% of my customers run some flavor of Windows XP or
> Windows 2000. Sure Vantage/Vista 8 requires XP SP 2 in order to run
> properly, but XP was 83% of the workstation market and going forward,
> Windows Vista will be able to run the new client.
>
> I don't know to many shops that have enough technical savvy people to
> put a MAC or Linux workstation at every location and have people
> navigate around. While they both "look and feel" nice and are starting
> to become more like Windows, the effort to support and maintain these
> two types of operating systems are hard to find and often expensive.
> Sure you might have a couple of users that need MACs for design work,
> etc, you can use other methods for accessing Vantage - terminal server,
> Citrix, etc. would work great for these two client workstation
> platforms.
>
> Here's the link to the survey I found:
> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2
> <http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2>
>
> Just my opinion, but Microsoft is doing the forcing, not Epicor. Epicor
> is just trying to keep up with the curve.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason Claggett
>
> Microsoft Small Business Specialist
>
> MCP #3856159
>
> 2W Technologies, LLC
>
> 312.533.4033 x8039
>
> jason@... <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf
> Of Christopher Gitzlaff
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 10:03 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
> The same could be said on the client side - any large / international
> software ERP company that only supports clients on one platform is
> limiting their potential...
>
> Apparently this doesn't seem to be bother Epicor. Why would it be a
> limiting factor on the server side? I like Progress - stable, zero
> admin after setup. However, Epicor's choice to force client lock-in on
> Windows was a mistake. Vantage is only an ERP system - it bothers me
> that they have made it the driving factor for hardware and OS
> requirements on the client (steeper requirements than our 3D CAD
> workstations).
>
> Chris Gitzlaff
> Major Industries
>
> Paul V. Blais wrote:
> >
> > I think Jason made a great point. "...I'm of the opinion any
> > large/International software ERP company that ONLY supports one
> database
> > platform is limiting their potential market share and thus minimizing
> > potential profit." Progress isn't going anywhere. But then again this
> > is Epicor ;) .
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Todd Caughey
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:00 AM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
> >
> > I hope Progress does not "go away". The stability and relative lack of
> > need for administrative overhead has been a real blessing. I don't
> have
> > the time (or skills) to do a lot of "programming" and need hooks into
> MS
> > products and other tools so we run pretty much "out of the box".
> > Progress is perfect for this and pretty much takes care of everything
> > for me....it's the Mac of DBs. From my little dealings with SQL Server
> > for FRx and some other apps it would "break the camel's back" in terms
> > of added work just to keep things running.
> >
> > Besides....we bought Vantage 4.0 "with database"....if Epicor were to
> > abandon Progress is there any chance they would provide SQL Server as
> a
> > part of the upgrade, covered under our maintenance & support fees? I
> > doubt Microsoft would cut a deal with them to allow this.
> >
> > -Todd C.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> > Behalf Of Jason Claggett
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:22 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
> >
> > Todd,
> >
> > I'll throw my 2 cents out there. As long as Epicor will be supporting
> > Unix/Linux platforms I don't see them going away from
> Progress/OpenEdge.
> > Also, I'm of the opinion any large/International software ERP company
> > that ONLY supports one database platform is limiting their potential
> > market share and thus minimizing potential profit.
> >
> > I just don't see Progress going away. However, I see, hopefully,
> > improved support for SQL Server and would hope Epicor would do a
> better
> > job of documenting problem resolution like they do with the Progress
> > database.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jason Claggett
> >
> > Microsoft Small Business Specialist
> >
> > MCP #3856159
> >
> > 2W Technologies, LLC
> >
> > 312.533.4033 x8039
> >
> > jason@... <mailto:jason%402wtech.com> <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
> <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
> > <mailto:jason%402wtech.com> <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>]
> > On Behalf
> > Of Todd Anderson
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 12:59 PM
> > To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
> > Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
> >
> > Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for
> the
> > DB
> > under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.
> >
> > V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.
> >
> > With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
> > go...
> >
> > At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
> > Progress.
> > Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
> > Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
> > performance
> > issues.
> >
> > A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
> > sales
> > rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
> > wondering if that was the right decision.
> >
> > Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
> > over
> > the next 5 years?
> >
> > As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
> > and
> > then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.
> >
> > Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Todd Anderson
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ________________________________
> > The information contained in this E-mail message and any documents
> which
> > may be attached are privileged and confidential, and may be protected
> > from disclosure.
> >
> > Please be aware that any use, printing, copying, disclosure or
> > dissemination of this communication may be subject to legal
> restriction
> > or sanction. If you think you have received this message in error,
> > please reply to the sender.
> >
> > For more information please visit www.harveyvogel.com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
17
> Epicor had a choice for version 8. They chose a "fat" client running on
> a proprietary system. What about the web browser? There are any number
> of multi-million dollar software companies whose primary application
> interface is the web browser (SugarCRM, Salesforce.com, etc...). I
> sincerely hope Epicor is working on something similar in addition to
> their standard client, but I haven't heard even a hint that they plan to
> do that.

I have heard that they are at least looking at the idea of Vantage Web and I
have actually seen a proof of concept Part Maintenance screen (using ASP.Net
and Webforms) in Internet Exploder. If they do it, it'll take a few years for
sure.

Mark W.
18
Mark, I concur. Many ERP companies have gone the way of web/portal based delivery for self-service apps and now most other apps years ago. Epicor's decision to go with the "fat client" on a proprietary system is setting them back . Their philosophy doesn't seem to appear to stay "ahead" of the curve or even stay abreast with the present day curve but rather to put out as many of the fires as is self-evident in their frequent patches/self-service packs releases. Their product teams and development QA team could certainly benefit from this forum's input to set new delivery standards . I would just be thankful if they could be more stable, mature in their functionality, consistent and streamline and broaden most of their functionality and provide more drill-down data cleanly in a "thinner" delivery package from one form to the next.
RSN


----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Wonsil <mark_wonsil@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 7:07:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

> Epicor had a choice for version 8. They chose a "fat" client running on
> a proprietary system. What about the web browser? There are any number
> of multi-million dollar software companies whose primary application
> interface is the web browser (SugarCRM, Salesforce.com, etc...). I
> sincerely hope Epicor is working on something similar in addition to
> their standard client, but I haven't heard even a hint that they plan to
> do that.

I have heard that they are at least looking at the idea of Vantage Web and I
have actually seen a proof of concept Part Maintenance screen (using ASP.Net
and Webforms) in Internet Exploder. If they do it, it'll take a few years for
sure.

Mark W.






____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
19
This may be way out in left field but.....
What about all the noise that gets made at Perspectives about Epicor's push towards Software as a Service? That is the ERP system being hosted by them and "served" via a web interface. Like salesforce.com and other systems. Could crippling local server performance and requiring fat clients be a setup to make SaaS more attractive down the road for those who run strictly "out of the box"? As I understand it the business model for SaaS is a not more profitable and revenue stream is more consistant - something investors tend to like.
-Todd C.

________________________________
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RSN
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:04 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond


Mark, I concur. Many ERP companies have gone the way of web/portal based delivery for self-service apps and now most other apps years ago. Epicor's decision to go with the "fat client" on a proprietary system is setting them back . Their philosophy doesn't seem to appear to stay "ahead" of the curve or even stay abreast with the present day curve but rather to put out as many of the fires as is self-evident in their frequent patches/self-service packs releases. Their product teams and development QA team could certainly benefit from this forum's input to set new delivery standards . I would just be thankful if they could be more stable, mature in their functionality, consistent and streamline and broaden most of their functionality and provide more drill-down data cleanly in a "thinner" delivery package from one form to the next.
RSN

----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Wonsil <mark_wonsil@...<mailto:mark_wonsil%40yahoo.com>>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 7:07:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

> Epicor had a choice for version 8. They chose a "fat" client running on
> a proprietary system. What about the web browser? There are any number
> of multi-million dollar software companies whose primary application
> interface is the web browser (SugarCRM, Salesforce.com, etc...). I
> sincerely hope Epicor is working on something similar in addition to
> their standard client, but I haven't heard even a hint that they plan to
> do that.

I have heard that they are at least looking at the idea of Vantage Web and I
have actually seen a proof of concept Part Maintenance screen (using ASP.Net
and Webforms) in Internet Exploder. If they do it, it'll take a few years for
sure.

Mark W.

__________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________
The information contained in this E-mail message and any documents which may be attached are privileged and confidential, and may be protected from disclosure.

Please be aware that any use, printing, copying, disclosure or dissemination of this communication may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. If you think you have received this message in error, please reply to the sender.

For more information please visit www.harveyvogel.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
20
A lot of hot air, but no substance is what I see. ASPs were/are a thing
that was short lived. I think most companies who thought this was a good
idea found out that when the internet went down for a day it practically
crippled their business - especially the smaller shops. I'm a little old
fashion when it comes to this, only because if I'm running a business I
go with something that is reliable enough to withstand any major
problems. Several of my clients have issues with their online backup
solutions not backing up their critical data on a nightly basis. I'd
soon take a tape backup and put it in a fire-proof safe offsite every
night - while this is 100% either it is a proven technology that has
been around for a long time.



I'm not opposed to advancement - but only when it won't leave a customer
crippled in the event of any type of failure.



Making any future release of the Epicor software run on a web server,
while it will most likely be faster, it will provide a new set of
problems and issues that will need to be addressed.



It comes down to this - in my opinion - Epicor needs to focus on
developing a stable product no matter what platform they choose. If they
develop a web application that has as many problems as a thick client -
what have we accomplished?



Thanks,



Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@...



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Todd Caughey
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:27 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



This may be way out in left field but.....
What about all the noise that gets made at Perspectives about Epicor's
push towards Software as a Service? That is the ERP system being hosted
by them and "served" via a web interface. Like salesforce.com and other
systems. Could crippling local server performance and requiring fat
clients be a setup to make SaaS more attractive down the road for those
who run strictly "out of the box"? As I understand it the business model
for SaaS is a not more profitable and revenue stream is more consistant
- something investors tend to like.
-Todd C.

________________________________
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of RSN
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:04 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Mark, I concur. Many ERP companies have gone the way of web/portal based
delivery for self-service apps and now most other apps years ago.
Epicor's decision to go with the "fat client" on a proprietary system is
setting them back . Their philosophy doesn't seem to appear to stay
"ahead" of the curve or even stay abreast with the present day curve but
rather to put out as many of the fires as is self-evident in their
frequent patches/self-service packs releases. Their product teams and
development QA team could certainly benefit from this forum's input to
set new delivery standards . I would just be thankful if they could be
more stable, mature in their functionality, consistent and streamline
and broaden most of their functionality and provide more drill-down data
cleanly in a "thinner" delivery package from one form to the next.
RSN

----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Wonsil <mark_wonsil@...
<mailto:mark_wonsil%40yahoo.com> <mailto:mark_wonsil%40yahoo.com>>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 7:07:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

> Epicor had a choice for version 8. They chose a "fat" client running
on
> a proprietary system. What about the web browser? There are any number
> of multi-million dollar software companies whose primary application
> interface is the web browser (SugarCRM, Salesforce.com, etc...). I
> sincerely hope Epicor is working on something similar in addition to
> their standard client, but I haven't heard even a hint that they plan
to
> do that.

I have heard that they are at least looking at the idea of Vantage Web
and I
have actually seen a proof of concept Part Maintenance screen (using
ASP.Net
and Webforms) in Internet Exploder. If they do it, it'll take a few
years for
sure.

Mark W.

__________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________
The information contained in this E-mail message and any documents which
may be attached are privileged and confidential, and may be protected
from disclosure.

Please be aware that any use, printing, copying, disclosure or
dissemination of this communication may be subject to legal restriction
or sanction. If you think you have received this message in error,
please reply to the sender.

For more information please visit www.harveyvogel.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]