MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Yahoo Archive
21
With you 100% on that.
-Todd C.

________________________________
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Claggett
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:06 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond


A lot of hot air, but no substance is what I see. ASPs were/are a thing
that was short lived. I think most companies who thought this was a good
idea found out that when the internet went down for a day it practically
crippled their business - especially the smaller shops. I'm a little old
fashion when it comes to this, only because if I'm running a business I
go with something that is reliable enough to withstand any major
problems. Several of my clients have issues with their online backup
solutions not backing up their critical data on a nightly basis. I'd
soon take a tape backup and put it in a fire-proof safe offsite every
night - while this is 100% either it is a proven technology that has
been around for a long time.

I'm not opposed to advancement - but only when it won't leave a customer
crippled in the event of any type of failure.

Making any future release of the Epicor software run on a web server,
while it will most likely be faster, it will provide a new set of
problems and issues that will need to be addressed.

It comes down to this - in my opinion - Epicor needs to focus on
developing a stable product no matter what platform they choose. If they
develop a web application that has as many problems as a thick client -
what have we accomplished?

Thanks,

Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@...<mailto:jason%402wtech.com>

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Todd Caughey
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:27 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

This may be way out in left field but.....
What about all the noise that gets made at Perspectives about Epicor's
push towards Software as a Service? That is the ERP system being hosted
by them and "served" via a web interface. Like salesforce.com and other
systems. Could crippling local server performance and requiring fat
clients be a setup to make SaaS more attractive down the road for those
who run strictly "out of the box"? As I understand it the business model
for SaaS is a not more profitable and revenue stream is more consistant
- something investors tend to like.
-Todd C.

________________________________
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of RSN
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:04 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Mark, I concur. Many ERP companies have gone the way of web/portal based
delivery for self-service apps and now most other apps years ago.
Epicor's decision to go with the "fat client" on a proprietary system is
setting them back . Their philosophy doesn't seem to appear to stay
"ahead" of the curve or even stay abreast with the present day curve but
rather to put out as many of the fires as is self-evident in their
frequent patches/self-service packs releases. Their product teams and
development QA team could certainly benefit from this forum's input to
set new delivery standards . I would just be thankful if they could be
more stable, mature in their functionality, consistent and streamline
and broaden most of their functionality and provide more drill-down data
cleanly in a "thinner" delivery package from one form to the next.
RSN

----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Wonsil <mark_wonsil@...<mailto:mark_wonsil%40yahoo.com>
<mailto:mark_wonsil%40yahoo.com> <mailto:mark_wonsil%40yahoo.com>>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 7:07:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

> Epicor had a choice for version 8. They chose a "fat" client running
on
> a proprietary system. What about the web browser? There are any number
> of multi-million dollar software companies whose primary application
> interface is the web browser (SugarCRM, Salesforce.com, etc...). I
> sincerely hope Epicor is working on something similar in addition to
> their standard client, but I haven't heard even a hint that they plan
to
> do that.

I have heard that they are at least looking at the idea of Vantage Web
and I
have actually seen a proof of concept Part Maintenance screen (using
ASP.Net
and Webforms) in Internet Exploder. If they do it, it'll take a few
years for
sure.

Mark W.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
22
> A lot of hot air, but no substance is what I see. ASPs were/are a thing
> that was short lived. I think most companies who thought this was a good
> idea found out that when the internet went down for a day it practically
> crippled their business - especially the smaller shops. I'm a little old
> fashion when it comes to this, only because if I'm running a business I
> go with something that is reliable enough to withstand any major
> problems. Several of my clients have issues with their online backup
> solutions not backing up their critical data on a nightly basis. I'd
> soon take a tape backup and put it in a fire-proof safe offsite every
> night - while this is 100% either it is a proven technology that has
> been around for a long time.

Let me take a little exception here. If your server goes down, you're in the
exact same shape as if your Internet connection goes down. If it's just your
Internet connection and not your service provider, you can go home to work!
Remote access and security is built into the platform.

Smaller shops (especially non-profits/schools/etc) are AWFUL at maintaining
systems. Updates? Backups? Forget about it. I've seen people hauling bad
backups home for weeks thinking they were good soldiers. I've been pushing the
kid's school to use web-based services like Google Applications, School Admin
software, etc. because they are really poor at maintaining their
software/hardware assets - and I'm tired of fixing it. ;-)

There's definitely a place for this kind of service, but I don't think this is
what Epicor is proposing for most of its users. (See next)

> Making any future release of the Epicor software run on a web server,
> while it will most likely be faster, it will provide a new set of
> problems and issues that will need to be addressed.

No doubt there will be new issues )and I wouldn't necessarily guarantee it
would be faster) but remember that the web server would be running local just
like your terminal server is today. You don't HAVE to run Vantage Web from
Epicor's servers. It would still run on your local network, which if it went
down, your fat clients (the software ones) would be down anyway.

> It comes down to this - in my opinion - Epicor needs to focus on
> developing a stable product no matter what platform they choose.

Absolutely!

> develop a web application that has as many problems as a thick client -
> what have we accomplished?

If Epicor is drinking the MS Kool-Aid, and I think they are*, they should be
able to leverage some of the work that they have done on the fat client.
They've already separated the UI from the data and business logic - which is
the tricky part, IMHO. I also believe that the newer version of the .Net
framework makes it much easier to turn C#/VB.Net forms into ASP.Net Webforms.
So it might not be as much work as it would have been if they were starting
with V6.

Mark W.

* Epicor got beat out for the MS Global ISV Award by Quest Software last
month:
http://www.realtime-windowsserver.com/market_news_trends/2007/08/breaking_ques
t_recognized_as_m.htm
Or
http://tinyurl.com/ysl6yd
23
Mark,



But what about users who have to log into jobs for data collection?
Working from home is just not practical. Orders, shipping, receiving,
etc...I'd have a mutiny on my hands if I told people to do their work
from home. Some of our customers are small, but do upwards of 60 orders
a day...I might as well give them the day off and put on the auto
attendant :-).



If any company is not taking the necessary steps to prepare for a
recovery situation, then yes, these issues are big. It's all in the
planning - if you spend some time planning correctly and testing backups
once a month (at a minimum), getting reliable servers (IBM, HP, DELL,
etc.) and not the "white box" server down the street you'll be well
ahead of the game. Most failures I've seen are hard drives only because
they are constantly moving and have a short life span. Yes, servers and
workstations require upkeep and maintenance just like the machines that
produce the widgets, screws, nuts, and bolts we ALL use in our daily
lives.



An ASP solution is just not a practical solution for manufacturing
companies.



Thanks,



Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@...



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Wonsil
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 3:29 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond




> A lot of hot air, but no substance is what I see. ASPs were/are a
thing
> that was short lived. I think most companies who thought this was a
good
> idea found out that when the internet went down for a day it
practically
> crippled their business - especially the smaller shops. I'm a little
old
> fashion when it comes to this, only because if I'm running a business
I
> go with something that is reliable enough to withstand any major
> problems. Several of my clients have issues with their online backup
> solutions not backing up their critical data on a nightly basis. I'd
> soon take a tape backup and put it in a fire-proof safe offsite every
> night - while this is 100% either it is a proven technology that has
> been around for a long time.

Let me take a little exception here. If your server goes down, you're in
the
exact same shape as if your Internet connection goes down. If it's just
your
Internet connection and not your service provider, you can go home to
work!
Remote access and security is built into the platform.

Smaller shops (especially non-profits/schools/etc) are AWFUL at
maintaining
systems. Updates? Backups? Forget about it. I've seen people hauling bad
backups home for weeks thinking they were good soldiers. I've been
pushing the
kid's school to use web-based services like Google Applications, School
Admin
software, etc. because they are really poor at maintaining their
software/hardware assets - and I'm tired of fixing it. ;-)

There's definitely a place for this kind of service, but I don't think
this is
what Epicor is proposing for most of its users. (See next)

> Making any future release of the Epicor software run on a web server,
> while it will most likely be faster, it will provide a new set of
> problems and issues that will need to be addressed.

No doubt there will be new issues )and I wouldn't necessarily guarantee
it
would be faster) but remember that the web server would be running local
just
like your terminal server is today. You don't HAVE to run Vantage Web
from
Epicor's servers. It would still run on your local network, which if it
went
down, your fat clients (the software ones) would be down anyway.

> It comes down to this - in my opinion - Epicor needs to focus on
> developing a stable product no matter what platform they choose.

Absolutely!

> develop a web application that has as many problems as a thick client
-
> what have we accomplished?

If Epicor is drinking the MS Kool-Aid, and I think they are*, they
should be
able to leverage some of the work that they have done on the fat client.
They've already separated the UI from the data and business logic -
which is
the tricky part, IMHO. I also believe that the newer version of the .Net
framework makes it much easier to turn C#/VB.Net forms into ASP.Net
Webforms.
So it might not be as much work as it would have been if they were
starting
with V6.

Mark W.

* Epicor got beat out for the MS Global ISV Award by Quest Software last
month:
http://www.realtime-windowsserver.com/market_news_trends/2007/08/breakin
g_ques
t_recognized_as_m.htm
Or
http://tinyurl.com/ysl6yd





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
24
Hi Jason,

I think we're more in agreement than you may think. Believe me, I'm not
comfortable handing over my data to a 3rd party and I like to own my code. I
also like to be able to move to a different service provider because I don't
like vendor lock-in. However, I don't think that ASP, as a technology, is a
fad anymore. I think you'll be seeing more of it because of the mobile
marketplace.

> But what about users who have to log into jobs for data collection?
> Working from home is just not practical. Orders, shipping, receiving,
> etc...I'd have a mutiny on my hands if I told people to do their work
> from home. Some of our customers are small, but do upwards of 60 orders
> a day...I might as well give them the day off and put on the auto
> attendant :-).

Some new Vantage users have said the very same thing when asked to enter 60
orders a day on the fat V8 .Net client. ;-)

But... (you knew that was coming...) there are other options. You could have a
laptop that connects to the Internet via Cell Modem or WiFi connection and be
back in business in the shipping department.

> If any company is not taking the necessary steps to prepare for a
> recovery situation, then yes, these issues are big. It's all in the
> planning - if you spend some time planning correctly and testing backups
> once a month (at a minimum), getting reliable servers (IBM, HP, DELL,
> etc.) and not the "white box" server down the street you'll be well
> ahead of the game. Most failures I've seen are hard drives only because
> they are constantly moving and have a short life span. Yes, servers and
> workstations require upkeep and maintenance just like the machines that
> produce the widgets, screws, nuts, and bolts we ALL use in our daily
> lives.

Agreed. Of course, if one was to be dependent on an Internet connection, your
planning would have you spending your money on redundant and reliable
connections instead of redundant servers/discs/power-supplies etc.

> An ASP solution is just not a practical solution for manufacturing
> companies.

Unless the MFG company is the ASP. I'm talking about a MFG system where people
use IE/FF/Safari instead of a fat client, which is what I understand what
Epicor was talking about. You would still have your database server on site
just like today except you'd also have a web server (or farm) and people would
access very similar screens via their browser. They are not going outside over
the Internet to some service provider. No more need for big client machines
with 3GB of RAM and no more installation/upgrade issues -- unless the system
required browser plug-ins of course.

I understand your position. For me, it's like condos -- all the disadvantages
of home ownership and apartment living, but obviously some people like them. I
think ASPs, as sold early on, will never come to be but there are some
solutions where they will work and you're going to see them hanging around. I
think the mobile device market is going to push this technology forward
because you're never going to get fat client support there and you're going to
get people who'll want to do more with their crackberries, iPhones, etc.

Mark W.
25
Hi Mark,



Not only are there benefits for the mobile market but there are significant
opportunities for catastrophic risk mitigation for highly distributed
enterprises as well.



Regards,



Michael



Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
<http://www.aspacia.com/> http://www.aspacia.com/




From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Mark Wonsil
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 2:09 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



Hi Jason,

I think we're more in agreement than you may think. Believe me, I'm not
comfortable handing over my data to a 3rd party and I like to own my code. I
also like to be able to move to a different service provider because I don't
like vendor lock-in. However, I don't think that ASP, as a technology, is a
fad anymore. I think you'll be seeing more of it because of the mobile
marketplace.

> But what about users who have to log into jobs for data collection?
> Working from home is just not practical. Orders, shipping, receiving,
> etc...I'd have a mutiny on my hands if I told people to do their work
> from home. Some of our customers are small, but do upwards of 60 orders
> a day...I might as well give them the day off and put on the auto
> attendant :-).

Some new Vantage users have said the very same thing when asked to enter 60
orders a day on the fat V8 .Net client. ;-)

But... (you knew that was coming...) there are other options. You could have
a
laptop that connects to the Internet via Cell Modem or WiFi connection and
be
back in business in the shipping department.

> If any company is not taking the necessary steps to prepare for a
> recovery situation, then yes, these issues are big. It's all in the
> planning - if you spend some time planning correctly and testing backups
> once a month (at a minimum), getting reliable servers (IBM, HP, DELL,
> etc.) and not the "white box" server down the street you'll be well
> ahead of the game. Most failures I've seen are hard drives only because
> they are constantly moving and have a short life span. Yes, servers and
> workstations require upkeep and maintenance just like the machines that
> produce the widgets, screws, nuts, and bolts we ALL use in our daily
> lives.

Agreed. Of course, if one was to be dependent on an Internet connection,
your
planning would have you spending your money on redundant and reliable
connections instead of redundant servers/discs/power-supplies etc.

> An ASP solution is just not a practical solution for manufacturing
> companies.

Unless the MFG company is the ASP. I'm talking about a MFG system where
people
use IE/FF/Safari instead of a fat client, which is what I understand what
Epicor was talking about. You would still have your database server on site
just like today except you'd also have a web server (or farm) and people
would
access very similar screens via their browser. They are not going outside
over
the Internet to some service provider. No more need for big client machines
with 3GB of RAM and no more installation/upgrade issues -- unless the system
required browser plug-ins of course.

I understand your position. For me, it's like condos -- all the
disadvantages
of home ownership and apartment living, but obviously some people like them.
I
think ASPs, as sold early on, will never come to be but there are some
solutions where they will work and you're going to see them hanging around.
I
think the mobile device market is going to push this technology forward
because you're never going to get fat client support there and you're going
to
get people who'll want to do more with their crackberries, iPhones, etc.

Mark W.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26
I've been following this thread and you all raise valid points however
just to throw some fuel on the fire check out www.plex.com
<http://www.plex.com/> . I think the ASP model is alive and well in the
ERP marketplace. We have had some demo's on specific modules that
Vantage does not support and I have been very impressed. Speed is
blazing compared to 8.0.4beta..., caution here though notice I did say
demo.



Keith Mailloux

Ferguson Perforating





________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jason Claggett
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:01 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



Mark,

But what about users who have to log into jobs for data collection?
Working from home is just not practical. Orders, shipping, receiving,
etc...I'd have a mutiny on my hands if I told people to do their work
from home. Some of our customers are small, but do upwards of 60 orders
a day...I might as well give them the day off and put on the auto
attendant :-).

If any company is not taking the necessary steps to prepare for a
recovery situation, then yes, these issues are big. It's all in the
planning - if you spend some time planning correctly and testing backups
once a month (at a minimum), getting reliable servers (IBM, HP, DELL,
etc.) and not the "white box" server down the street you'll be well
ahead of the game. Most failures I've seen are hard drives only because
they are constantly moving and have a short life span. Yes, servers and
workstations require upkeep and maintenance just like the machines that
produce the widgets, screws, nuts, and bolts we ALL use in our daily
lives.

An ASP solution is just not a practical solution for manufacturing
companies.

Thanks,

Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@... <mailto:jason%402wtech.com>

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf
Of Mark Wonsil
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 3:29 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

> A lot of hot air, but no substance is what I see. ASPs were/are a
thing
> that was short lived. I think most companies who thought this was a
good
> idea found out that when the internet went down for a day it
practically
> crippled their business - especially the smaller shops. I'm a little
old
> fashion when it comes to this, only because if I'm running a business
I
> go with something that is reliable enough to withstand any major
> problems. Several of my clients have issues with their online backup
> solutions not backing up their critical data on a nightly basis. I'd
> soon take a tape backup and put it in a fire-proof safe offsite every
> night - while this is 100% either it is a proven technology that has
> been around for a long time.

Let me take a little exception here. If your server goes down, you're in
the
exact same shape as if your Internet connection goes down. If it's just
your
Internet connection and not your service provider, you can go home to
work!
Remote access and security is built into the platform.

Smaller shops (especially non-profits/schools/etc) are AWFUL at
maintaining
systems. Updates? Backups? Forget about it. I've seen people hauling bad
backups home for weeks thinking they were good soldiers. I've been
pushing the
kid's school to use web-based services like Google Applications, School
Admin
software, etc. because they are really poor at maintaining their
software/hardware assets - and I'm tired of fixing it. ;-)

There's definitely a place for this kind of service, but I don't think
this is
what Epicor is proposing for most of its users. (See next)

> Making any future release of the Epicor software run on a web server,
> while it will most likely be faster, it will provide a new set of
> problems and issues that will need to be addressed.

No doubt there will be new issues )and I wouldn't necessarily guarantee
it
would be faster) but remember that the web server would be running local
just
like your terminal server is today. You don't HAVE to run Vantage Web
from
Epicor's servers. It would still run on your local network, which if it
went
down, your fat clients (the software ones) would be down anyway.

> It comes down to this - in my opinion - Epicor needs to focus on
> developing a stable product no matter what platform they choose.

Absolutely!

> develop a web application that has as many problems as a thick client
-
> what have we accomplished?

If Epicor is drinking the MS Kool-Aid, and I think they are*, they
should be
able to leverage some of the work that they have done on the fat client.
They've already separated the UI from the data and business logic -
which is
the tricky part, IMHO. I also believe that the newer version of the .Net
framework makes it much easier to turn C#/VB.Net forms into ASP.Net
Webforms.
So it might not be as much work as it would have been if they were
starting
with V6.

Mark W.

* Epicor got beat out for the MS Global ISV Award by Quest Software last
month:
http://www.realtime-windowsserver.com/market_news_trends/2007/08/breakin
<http://www.realtime-windowsserver.com/market_news_trends/2007/08/breaki
n>
g_ques
t_recognized_as_m.htm
Or
http://tinyurl.com/ysl6yd <http://tinyurl.com/ysl6yd>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





---------------------------------
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27
I asked our customer rep this exact question. His official (maybe
unofficial, not sure) stance was Epicor and Progress have deep roots,
and in no way was Epicor going to stray away from Progress.



He also stated even though the working platform is SQL for those who
chose SQL, Progress is still conducting the flow. I do not know what or
how that works technically. There is actually a performance hit due to
this. So the SQL install should at least theoretically run slower than
Progress setup.



It seems the majority of the newer features incorporated from Epicor
buy-outs run on MS-SQL. With that, I have to wonder for how long will
the core product be able to stand up to the pressure of the SQL add-ons.
Eventually it seems either the addons or the core will need to be
rewritten for a unified platform.



Bruce Butler

IT Manager

Knappe & Koester, Inc.


From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the
DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
28
Bruce,



There are some Progress "connectors" (Epicor refers to them as schema
holders) that are put in the mfgsys803/db folder that do the
redirecting. Although the performance hit is not as bad as it was in V6,
this is just another place where something can break and another step in
the troubleshooting process when there is a problem.



Bottom line is, Epicor development needs to write individual connection
interfaces for each type of database they want to support otherwise you
will always be a slave to Progress.



Most of our customers go with Progress, but there have been a couple
that have chosen SQL - mostly because they had the SQL knowledge
already. One of them actually PAID Epicor to convert their data from SQL
to Progress after they went live because it was running way too slow.



Thanks,



Jason Claggett

Microsoft Small Business Specialist

MCP #3856159

2W Technologies, LLC

312.533.4033 x8039

jason@...



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Bruce Butler
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 8:46 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond



I asked our customer rep this exact question. His official (maybe
unofficial, not sure) stance was Epicor and Progress have deep roots,
and in no way was Epicor going to stray away from Progress.

He also stated even though the working platform is SQL for those who
chose SQL, Progress is still conducting the flow. I do not know what or
how that works technically. There is actually a performance hit due to
this. So the SQL install should at least theoretically run slower than
Progress setup.

It seems the majority of the newer features incorporated from Epicor
buy-outs run on MS-SQL. With that, I have to wonder for how long will
the core product be able to stand up to the pressure of the SQL add-ons.
Eventually it seems either the addons or the core will need to be
rewritten for a unified platform.

Bruce Butler

IT Manager

Knappe & Koester, Inc.

From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond

Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress for the
DB
under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.

V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.

With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
go...

At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
Progress.
Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
performance
issues.

A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and the
sales
rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
wondering if that was the right decision.

Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play out
over
the next 5 years?

As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install Progress
and
then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.

Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
29
My own opinion is that the SQL database will dominate at Epicor in
the not too distant future. Progress Software has been emphasizing
their development tools and app server technology in the past few
years, realizing that SQL Server and Oracle have become the industry
standards for database technology. I have done benchmarking on the
performance of Vantage 8 on SQL and Progress and have not seen
significant differences. This is consistent with everything I have
heard from the technical people at Epicor. I do believe that the
server hardware specs published by Epicor for SQL are on the low
side. SQL runs better with lots of RAM. Also, according to Epicor,
8.03.400 will support native access to SQL, I assume without the
schema holders, so any small performance advantgage currently held
by Progress will probably disappear in the near future.

Further down the road in version 9, Epicor is going to consolidate
their Enterprise (non-manufacturing) ERP product onto the Vantage
platform. That user base is 100% SQL. I don't think many of them
are going to convert to Progress, so within a few years, the
majority of Epicor users will be on SQL, not Progress. I don't
doubt that Progress is a very competent database, but the toolset
that comes with SQL (including the ODBC driver) is far superior to
what you get with Progress, and the advantages of being on the
industry standard database are huge.




--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Claggett" <jason@...> wrote:
>
> Bruce,
>
>
>
> There are some Progress "connectors" (Epicor refers to them as
schema
> holders) that are put in the mfgsys803/db folder that do the
> redirecting. Although the performance hit is not as bad as it was
in V6,
> this is just another place where something can break and another
step in
> the troubleshooting process when there is a problem.
>
>
>
> Bottom line is, Epicor development needs to write individual
connection
> interfaces for each type of database they want to support
otherwise you
> will always be a slave to Progress.
>
>
>
> Most of our customers go with Progress, but there have been a
couple
> that have chosen SQL - mostly because they had the SQL knowledge
> already. One of them actually PAID Epicor to convert their data
from SQL
> to Progress after they went live because it was running way too
slow.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Jason Claggett
>
> Microsoft Small Business Specialist
>
> MCP #3856159
>
> 2W Technologies, LLC
>
> 312.533.4033 x8039
>
> jason@...
>
>
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Bruce Butler
> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 8:46 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
>
>
> I asked our customer rep this exact question. His official (maybe
> unofficial, not sure) stance was Epicor and Progress have deep
roots,
> and in no way was Epicor going to stray away from Progress.
>
> He also stated even though the working platform is SQL for those
who
> chose SQL, Progress is still conducting the flow. I do not know
what or
> how that works technically. There is actually a performance hit
due to
> this. So the SQL install should at least theoretically run slower
than
> Progress setup.
>
> It seems the majority of the newer features incorporated from
Epicor
> buy-outs run on MS-SQL. With that, I have to wonder for how long
will
> the core product be able to stand up to the pressure of the SQL
add-ons.
> Eventually it seems either the addons or the core will need to be
> rewritten for a unified platform.
>
> Bruce Butler
>
> IT Manager
>
> Knappe & Koester, Inc.
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%
40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
> Behalf Of
> Todd Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 9:59 AM
> To: 'Vantage @ YahooGroups. Com'
> Subject: [Vantage] MS-SQL vs Progress - V8 and beyond
>
> Can I ask what the current thoughts are about MS-SQL vs Progress
for the
> DB
> under V8 and for V9-V10-V11-V12 etc in the future.
>
> V6.1 and prior was, what, 99.2% Progress.
>
> With V8 it seems like the tide hasn't decided which way it wants to
> go...
>
> At first it seemed like most folks were planning on staying with
> Progress.
> Then it seemed like SQL was selling on most new accounts.
> Now it seems like some folks are drifting back to Progress for
> performance
> issues.
>
> A company yesterday said they were sold the system with MS-SQL and
the
> sales
> rep made NO mention that Progress was an alternative. Now they are
> wondering if that was the right decision.
>
> Does ANYONE have a clue or an opinion on how this is going to play
out
> over
> the next 5 years?
>
> As the customer said yesterday ... He doesn't want to install
Progress
> and
> then have to switch to SQL in the next 3 years ... or vice versa.
>
> Truly - I'd appreciate any feed back I can get on this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd Anderson
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>