What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x Frustrations

Yahoo Archive
1
I thought there were some good points mentioned here and on the thread that the moderator asked to stop (too bad!). In general, what I notice is that there is a lack of maturity and stability in the product development plan and its lifecycle. Never seen a product go through 2 major . upgrades in a year and half to then merge into a proposed Mother of all Epicor products-Epicor 9. Its worth the time to invest in getting the basics right first- at least Epicor's product life cycle strategy is not made clear and I think it would help us to know this right off the bat. I mean why not 8.03.500 by the end of the year? instead of Epicor 9.

Change control and notification to users in an improved format on their EpicWeb portal would be a good move for starters.
Even the knowledgebase/answer book articles are "so last decade" with no real up-to-date contributions-what is the point? The EpicWeb portal should be our first resource to find any and all issues reported by any customer so we can at least search by them to see how many people reported something like it.
Typically when a company like Oracle or SAP puts out a patch- they list who reported the issue and lists in detail, the cause, symptoms and impact of a bug and then they specify whethe/where the bug reported has moved up the chain-if in review, in development, when to expect it etc. You at least have a BUG# that you can track and get updates on.
At Epicor support you add your vote to an existing issue yet to be an SCR and even if it is- the feedback is not always consistent.
I perceive a more laid back (well "slacker" came to mind) approach with the product updates for Epicor. There is definitely a lack of stringent QA testing/product functionality testing from where the user stands. I am certainly not a software product manager by any means but I've done a few implementations in my time.
While I'm glad that the Vantage product is sort of loose in style and flexible, I really wish that they would interface with this user forum in a more structured way to gain some input and at least provide some general understanding on consistent issues that are raised here.
Its evident, that there are so many woes directed on this forum and the EUG forum that its really too bad that all this energy and effort are not directed by Epicor into a more productive outcome to serve in the continuous improvement process of their software and get their current customers to be their biggest partners in tow.
Every time I apply a patch, I am always tentative- and never know what else is going to break. The quality of the support people on the tier 1 level leave a lot of room for improvement. The really good ones u know about acknowledge the limitationa and offer a work-around while they raise an issue immediately with development and you don't have to repeat your issue for weeks and days repeatedly to the same person (ugh! I hate that).
All it takes is for someone at Epicor to take a single strategy to address everyone's frustrations and at least provide an avenue for someone to routinely address and allow us to feel like we are heard. We are all maintenance paying customers aren't we? I don't get much of the hearing on EUG forum either. Still waiting to experience the benefits on that one as well.
And the standard answer from support should NOT be " you need to move to 8.03.400" when you know good and well that its not fixed there either-
The product documentation could continue to be improved on all levels instead of just staying generic.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2
Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as users, like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user base? Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see them deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they read these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation constructive.

For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...

1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and what they plan to do about it.

2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed when a bug is reported.

3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests - especially very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part of any manufacturing system.

4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can access) that can detail known issues in various releases and what the prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing product weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.

5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't know what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems their quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please tell us their plan?

I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives for anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but considering the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might be worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on with the frustration level at the conference.

So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base and constructive for the relationship.

By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its role as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.

Sincerely,
Todd Caughey
IT Manager
Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
Woodbury, MN




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
3
Finally...a professional approach.

I echo everything you wrote.

I would also add two more items:

6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are good
too).

7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing the 'how
do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley helpful.
Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator classes
and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of knowledge
in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-versa.

Thanks
Patty Buechler
UV Color
Roseville, MN






--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, Todd Caughey <caugheyt@...> wrote:
>
> Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as users,
like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user base?
Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see them
deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they read
these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation constructive.
>
> For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
>
> 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and what
they plan to do about it.
>
> 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed when
a bug is reported.
>
> 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests - especially
very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part of
any manufacturing system.
>
> 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can access)
that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing product
weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
>
> 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't know
what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems their
quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please tell
us their plan?
>
> I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives for
anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but considering
the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might be
worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
with the frustration level at the conference.
>
> So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
and constructive for the relationship.
>
> By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its role
as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
>
> Sincerely,
> Todd Caughey
> IT Manager
> Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> Woodbury, MN
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
4
This sounds great Todd. Every chance that I get with Epicor I will
definitely push for these items and support this kind of activity. I
hope everyone else will also.

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Todd Caughey
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:01 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x Frustrations



Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as users, like
to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user base? Not simply
'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see them deal with the
issues raised in the other thread. We know they read these posts so
here's a chance to make the conversation constructive.

For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...

1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch releases
have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and what they plan to
do about it.

2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed when a bug
is reported.

3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests - especially very
basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part of any
manufacturing system.

4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can access) that
can detail known issues in various releases and what the prognosis for
fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing product weakness in the
market but we as users have a need to know.

5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't know what
the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems their quality
systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please tell us their
plan?

I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives for anyone
seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but considering the sunk
costs and the future costs for any other system it might be worth the
investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on with the
frustration level at the conference.

So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to consider as
a means to address why someone would want to "drop epicor". Again,
please keep it realistic, useful to the user base and constructive for
the relationship.

By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its role as the
"official voice' for the customer base? I would have a suggestion for
EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some solutions for
strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.

Sincerely,
Todd Caughey
IT Manager
Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
Woodbury, MN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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5
Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of bpbuechler
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations



Finally...a professional approach.

I echo everything you wrote.

I would also add two more items:

6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are good
too).

7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing the 'how
do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley helpful.
Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator classes
and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of knowledge
in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-versa.

Thanks
Patty Buechler
UV Color
Roseville, MN

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
Caughey <caugheyt@...> wrote:
>
> Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as users,
like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user base?
Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see them
deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they read
these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation constructive.
>
> For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
>
> 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and what
they plan to do about it.
>
> 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed when
a bug is reported.
>
> 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests - especially
very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part of
any manufacturing system.
>
> 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can access)
that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing product
weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
>
> 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't know
what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems their
quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please tell
us their plan?
>
> I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives for
anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but considering
the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might be
worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
with the frustration level at the conference.
>
> So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
and constructive for the relationship.
>
> By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its role
as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
>
> Sincerely,
> Todd Caughey
> IT Manager
> Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> Woodbury, MN
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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*-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s) can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person. This e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless a complete contract document is attached hereto including all exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for your assistance.

C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6
8. Every 'version' of Vantage should stand on it's own 2 feet. Whether or not you have a maintenance agreement. If I want version 8.03.405 to be the last version I ever upgrade to... then it should eventually work without flaw, bugs or workarounds.



Les Hanson <lhanson@...> wrote:
Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of bpbuechler
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations

Finally...a professional approach.

I echo everything you wrote.

I would also add two more items:

6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are good
too).

7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing the 'how
do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley helpful.
Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator classes
and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of knowledge
in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-versa.

Thanks
Patty Buechler
UV Color
Roseville, MN

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
Caughey <caugheyt@...> wrote:
>
> Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as users,
like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user base?
Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see them
deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they read
these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation constructive.
>
> For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
>
> 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and what
they plan to do about it.
>
> 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed when
a bug is reported.
>
> 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests - especially
very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part of
any manufacturing system.
>
> 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can access)
that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing product
weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
>
> 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't know
what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems their
quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please tell
us their plan?
>
> I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives for
anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but considering
the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might be
worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
with the frustration level at the conference.
>
> So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
and constructive for the relationship.
>
> By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its role
as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
>
> Sincerely,
> Todd Caughey
> IT Manager
> Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> Woodbury, MN
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

----------------------------------------------------------
*-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s) can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person. This e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless a complete contract document is attached hereto including all exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for your assistance.

C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7
I agree 100% with your statement of each version standing on it's
own.

In addition the support staff should understand the differencec
between each of the patch levels to a greater degree. When two
techs give a complete different answer of something working or not
on your current level there is something wrong.
Ohh yeah and give us our money back :)


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, xorone <xorone@...> wrote:
>
> 8. Every 'version' of Vantage should stand on it's own 2 feet.
Whether or not you have a maintenance agreement. If I want version
8.03.405 to be the last version I ever upgrade to... then it should
eventually work without flaw, bugs or workarounds.
>
>
>
> Les Hanson <lhanson@...> wrote:
> Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.
>
> _____
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of bpbuechler
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
> Frustrations
>
> Finally...a professional approach.
>
> I echo everything you wrote.
>
> I would also add two more items:
>
> 6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
> Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
> sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
> But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
> long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
> sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are
good
> too).
>
> 7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
> maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing
the 'how
> do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley helpful.
> Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator
classes
> and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of
knowledge
> in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
> business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-
versa.
>
> Thanks
> Patty Buechler
> UV Color
> Roseville, MN
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%
40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
> Caughey <caugheyt@> wrote:
> >
> > Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as
users,
> like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user base?
> Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see
them
> deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they read
> these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation
constructive.
> >
> > For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
> >
> > 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
> releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and
what
> they plan to do about it.
> >
> > 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed
when
> a bug is reported.
> >
> > 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests - especially
> very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part of
> any manufacturing system.
> >
> > 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can access)
> that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
> prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing product
> weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
> >
> > 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't
know
> what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems
their
> quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please tell
> us their plan?
> >
> > I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives for
> anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but
considering
> the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might
be
> worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
> with the frustration level at the conference.
> >
> > So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
> consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
> epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
> and constructive for the relationship.
> >
> > By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its
role
> as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
> suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
> solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Todd Caughey
> > IT Manager
> > Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> > Woodbury, MN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> *-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s)
can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-
mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-
mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your
system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use
them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person. This
e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless
a complete contract document is attached hereto including all
exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for
your assistance.
>
> C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
8
9. When Epicor knowingly diminishes finctionality or flexibility
with a patch, I would like to know about it. When 400 came out,
there was a loss of flexibility in the serial number area. We had
become accustomed to having that flexibility. We had to scramble to
recover from that change. It would have been nice if we had known.
And by the way, in Epicor 9, that flexibility is back, and then some.

-Peter

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Michael McWilliams"
<mmcwilliams22@...> wrote:
>
> I agree 100% with your statement of each version standing on it's
> own.
>
> In addition the support staff should understand the differencec
> between each of the patch levels to a greater degree. When two
> techs give a complete different answer of something working or not
> on your current level there is something wrong.
> Ohh yeah and give us our money back :)
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, xorone <xorone@> wrote:
> >
> > 8. Every 'version' of Vantage should stand on it's own 2 feet.
> Whether or not you have a maintenance agreement. If I want version
> 8.03.405 to be the last version I ever upgrade to... then it should
> eventually work without flaw, bugs or workarounds.
> >
> >
> >
> > Les Hanson <lhanson@> wrote:
> > Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of bpbuechler
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
> > Frustrations
> >
> > Finally...a professional approach.
> >
> > I echo everything you wrote.
> >
> > I would also add two more items:
> >
> > 6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
> > Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
> > sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
> > But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
> > long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
> > sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are
> good
> > too).
> >
> > 7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
> > maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing
> the 'how
> > do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley
helpful.
> > Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator
> classes
> > and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of
> knowledge
> > in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
> > business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-
> versa.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Patty Buechler
> > UV Color
> > Roseville, MN
> >
> > --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%
> 40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
> > Caughey <caugheyt@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as
> users,
> > like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user
base?
> > Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see
> them
> > deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they
read
> > these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation
> constructive.
> > >
> > > For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
> > >
> > > 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
> > releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and
> what
> > they plan to do about it.
> > >
> > > 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed
> when
> > a bug is reported.
> > >
> > > 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests -
especially
> > very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part
of
> > any manufacturing system.
> > >
> > > 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can
access)
> > that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
> > prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing
product
> > weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
> > >
> > > 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't
> know
> > what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems
> their
> > quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please
tell
> > us their plan?
> > >
> > > I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives
for
> > anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but
> considering
> > the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might
> be
> > worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
> > with the frustration level at the conference.
> > >
> > > So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
> > consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
> > epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
> > and constructive for the relationship.
> > >
> > > By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its
> role
> > as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
> > suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
> > solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Todd Caughey
> > > IT Manager
> > > Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> > > Woodbury, MN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > *-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s)
> can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-
> mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-
> mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your
> system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use
> them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person.
This
> e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless
> a complete contract document is attached hereto including all
> exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for
> your assistance.
> >
> > C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
9
If I may inquire.

How do we as a User base in this forum get Epicor to hear\respond this
collective voice?

Scott Litzau, MCP
Olympus Flag & Banner
Information Systems Manager
scott.litzau@...
P: 414-365-9732
F: 414-355-1931


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
pvolkert365
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:09 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x Frustrations

9. When Epicor knowingly diminishes finctionality or flexibility
with a patch, I would like to know about it. When 400 came out,
there was a loss of flexibility in the serial number area. We had
become accustomed to having that flexibility. We had to scramble to
recover from that change. It would have been nice if we had known.
And by the way, in Epicor 9, that flexibility is back, and then some.

-Peter

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Michael McWilliams"
<mmcwilliams22@...> wrote:
>
> I agree 100% with your statement of each version standing on it's
> own.
>
> In addition the support staff should understand the differencec
> between each of the patch levels to a greater degree. When two
> techs give a complete different answer of something working or not
> on your current level there is something wrong.
> Ohh yeah and give us our money back :)
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, xorone <xorone@> wrote:
> >
> > 8. Every 'version' of Vantage should stand on it's own 2 feet.
> Whether or not you have a maintenance agreement. If I want version
> 8.03.405 to be the last version I ever upgrade to... then it should
> eventually work without flaw, bugs or workarounds.
> >
> >
> >
> > Les Hanson <lhanson@> wrote:
> > Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of bpbuechler
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
> > Frustrations
> >
> > Finally...a professional approach.
> >
> > I echo everything you wrote.
> >
> > I would also add two more items:
> >
> > 6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
> > Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
> > sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
> > But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
> > long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
> > sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are
> good
> > too).
> >
> > 7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
> > maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing
> the 'how
> > do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley
helpful.
> > Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator
> classes
> > and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of
> knowledge
> > in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
> > business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-
> versa.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Patty Buechler
> > UV Color
> > Roseville, MN
> >
> > --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%
> 40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
> > Caughey <caugheyt@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as
> users,
> > like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user
base?
> > Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see
> them
> > deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they
read
> > these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation
> constructive.
> > >
> > > For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
> > >
> > > 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
> > releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and
> what
> > they plan to do about it.
> > >
> > > 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed
> when
> > a bug is reported.
> > >
> > > 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests -
especially
> > very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part
of
> > any manufacturing system.
> > >
> > > 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can
access)
> > that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
> > prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing
product
> > weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
> > >
> > > 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't
> know
> > what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems
> their
> > quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please
tell
> > us their plan?
> > >
> > > I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives
for
> > anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but
> considering
> > the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might
> be
> > worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
> > with the frustration level at the conference.
> > >
> > > So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
> > consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
> > epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
> > and constructive for the relationship.
> > >
> > > By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its
> role
> > as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
> > suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
> > solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Todd Caughey
> > > IT Manager
> > > Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> > > Woodbury, MN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > *-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s)
> can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-
> mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-
> mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your
> system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use
> them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person.
This
> e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless
> a complete contract document is attached hereto including all
> exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for
> your assistance.
> >
> > C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>



------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
10
Buy stock and vote collectively..



Michael



Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
<http://www.aspacia.com/> http://www.aspacia.com/




From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Litzau
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:30 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations



If I may inquire.

How do we as a User base in this forum get Epicor to hear\respond this
collective voice?

Scott Litzau, MCP
Olympus Flag & Banner
Information Systems Manager
scott.litzau@... <mailto:scott.litzau%40olympus-flag.com>
P: 414-365-9732
F: 414-355-1931

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of
pvolkert365
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:09 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x Frustrations

9. When Epicor knowingly diminishes finctionality or flexibility
with a patch, I would like to know about it. When 400 came out,
there was a loss of flexibility in the serial number area. We had
become accustomed to having that flexibility. We had to scramble to
recover from that change. It would have been nice if we had known.
And by the way, in Epicor 9, that flexibility is back, and then some.

-Peter

-- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> , "Michael
McWilliams"
<mmcwilliams22@...> wrote:
>
> I agree 100% with your statement of each version standing on it's
> own.
>
> In addition the support staff should understand the differencec
> between each of the patch levels to a greater degree. When two
> techs give a complete different answer of something working or not
> on your current level there is something wrong.
> Ohh yeah and give us our money back :)
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> , xorone
<xorone@> wrote:
> >
> > 8. Every 'version' of Vantage should stand on it's own 2 feet.
> Whether or not you have a maintenance agreement. If I want version
> 8.03.405 to be the last version I ever upgrade to... then it should
> eventually work without flaw, bugs or workarounds.
> >
> >
> >
> > Les Hanson <lhanson@> wrote:
> > Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf
> > Of bpbuechler
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
> > Frustrations
> >
> > Finally...a professional approach.
> >
> > I echo everything you wrote.
> >
> > I would also add two more items:
> >
> > 6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
> > Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
> > sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
> > But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
> > long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
> > sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are
> good
> > too).
> >
> > 7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
> > maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing
> the 'how
> > do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley
helpful.
> > Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator
> classes
> > and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of
> knowledge
> > in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
> > business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-
> versa.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Patty Buechler
> > UV Color
> > Roseville, MN
> >
> > --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%
> 40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
> > Caughey <caugheyt@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as
> users,
> > like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user
base?
> > Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see
> them
> > deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they
read
> > these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation
> constructive.
> > >
> > > For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
> > >
> > > 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
> > releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and
> what
> > they plan to do about it.
> > >
> > > 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed
> when
> > a bug is reported.
> > >
> > > 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests -
especially
> > very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part
of
> > any manufacturing system.
> > >
> > > 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can
access)
> > that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
> > prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing
product
> > weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
> > >
> > > 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't
> know
> > what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems
> their
> > quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please
tell
> > us their plan?
> > >
> > > I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives
for
> > anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but
> considering
> > the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might
> be
> > worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
> > with the frustration level at the conference.
> > >
> > > So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
> > consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
> > epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
> > and constructive for the relationship.
> > >
> > > By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its
> role
> > as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
> > suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
> > solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Todd Caughey
> > > IT Manager
> > > Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> > > Woodbury, MN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > *-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s)
> can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-
> mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-
> mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your
> system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use
> them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person.
This
> e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless
> a complete contract document is attached hereto including all
> exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for
> your assistance.
> >
> > C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11
lol... interesting, thought I that our maintenance fees would be enough collectivity. @ about $16,000/annually and with epicor claiming 2000 installed base + 800 new installs a year, thats > 32m, just in annual maint. fees.

But, we'll see what V9 brings us. We will be early adopters, probably in Dec 08 if release is as scheduled. Had relatively stable & profitable system with 6.1.


Michael Barry <mbarry@...> wrote:
Buy stock and vote collectively..

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
<http://www.aspacia.com/> http://www.aspacia.com/

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Litzau
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:30 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations

If I may inquire.

How do we as a User base in this forum get Epicor to hear\respond this
collective voice?

Scott Litzau, MCP
Olympus Flag & Banner
Information Systems Manager
scott.litzau@... <mailto:scott.litzau%40olympus-flag.com>
P: 414-365-9732
F: 414-355-1931

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of
pvolkert365
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:09 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x Frustrations

9. When Epicor knowingly diminishes finctionality or flexibility
with a patch, I would like to know about it. When 400 came out,
there was a loss of flexibility in the serial number area. We had
become accustomed to having that flexibility. We had to scramble to
recover from that change. It would have been nice if we had known.
And by the way, in Epicor 9, that flexibility is back, and then some.

-Peter

-- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> , "Michael
McWilliams"
<mmcwilliams22@...> wrote:
>
> I agree 100% with your statement of each version standing on it's
> own.
>
> In addition the support staff should understand the differencec
> between each of the patch levels to a greater degree. When two
> techs give a complete different answer of something working or not
> on your current level there is something wrong.
> Ohh yeah and give us our money back :)
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> , xorone
<xorone@> wrote:
> >
> > 8. Every 'version' of Vantage should stand on it's own 2 feet.
> Whether or not you have a maintenance agreement. If I want version
> 8.03.405 to be the last version I ever upgrade to... then it should
> eventually work without flaw, bugs or workarounds.
> >
> >
> >
> > Les Hanson <lhanson@> wrote:
> > Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf
> > Of bpbuechler
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
> > Frustrations
> >
> > Finally...a professional approach.
> >
> > I echo everything you wrote.
> >
> > I would also add two more items:
> >
> > 6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
> > Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
> > sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
> > But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
> > long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
> > sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are
> good
> > too).
> >
> > 7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
> > maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing
> the 'how
> > do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley
helpful.
> > Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator
> classes
> > and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of
> knowledge
> > in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
> > business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-
> versa.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Patty Buechler
> > UV Color
> > Roseville, MN
> >
> > --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%
> 40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
> > Caughey <caugheyt@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as
> users,
> > like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user
base?
> > Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see
> them
> > deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they
read
> > these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation
> constructive.
> > >
> > > For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
> > >
> > > 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
> > releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and
> what
> > they plan to do about it.
> > >
> > > 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed
> when
> > a bug is reported.
> > >
> > > 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests -
especially
> > very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part
of
> > any manufacturing system.
> > >
> > > 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can
access)
> > that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
> > prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing
product
> > weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
> > >
> > > 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't
> know
> > what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems
> their
> > quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please
tell
> > us their plan?
> > >
> > > I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives
for
> > anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but
> considering
> > the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might
> be
> > worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
> > with the frustration level at the conference.
> > >
> > > So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
> > consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
> > epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
> > and constructive for the relationship.
> > >
> > > By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its
> role
> > as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
> > suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
> > solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Todd Caughey
> > > IT Manager
> > > Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> > > Woodbury, MN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > *-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s)
> can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-
> mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-
> mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your
> system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use
> them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person.
This
> e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless
> a complete contract document is attached hereto including all
> exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for
> your assistance.
> >
> > C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12
In the beginning Epicor didn't even recognize this email group and
refused to acknowledge it for many years. This members of this email
group have struggled to be even get Epicor to recognized us and I am
proud of the email group when at the last Perspectives, our email group
was highly mentioned on the first day by Dan Whelan's comments. This is
a fantastic for our group and shows that this group is starting to make
a difference. I would like to see us keep moving forward.

As for getting Epicor to hear us, it is just what Todd Caughey did.
Express your issues, ideas, problems and solutions to this group and
then as any/all of us talk with Epicor either through Tech Support,
CAMs, Summit meetings, Roadshows, or Perspectives let them know your
frustrations - support your fellow Vantage Vista users. Talking to
people still seems to turn the wheels of improvement. BTW, I have just
converted from Vantage 6.1 to 8.03 so I am living the pains that
everyone is talking about and I call Tech support to make the necessary
changes and fixes to make my company work successfully. This also helps
those of you that have/haven't move yet to 8.03 and maybe you won't run
into the same struggles that I have had (I hope not). I am not totally
happy either. I know that it seems that we keep hitting Epicor with the
same issues/problems and nothing seems to get done but I believe that
this group is making a difference with Epicor. I have gotten some
important things included into Vantage for my company and it has take
5-6 years to get it. If you are not ready to move off 6.1 then wait for
things to get better and then move over at your own pace. That what I
did. With the new technology that Epicor has brought to the table, I
had to make the decision to move off of 6.1 and I am starting to see it
pay off. Some of my users are actually telling me that they are working
faster, responding to our customers quicker than they did in 6.1 and
most like the new environment. Yes, I do have those users that resist
change and I am working with them but some of those uses will always
refuse the change. I have the same struggles as everyone trying to make
Epicor hear me but I have to keep trying for my company's success and
for fellow Vantage-Vista users. Like it or not we are all in it
together.

So please contact and talk with Epicor every chance you get and help
support this group. I don't think that emails are making as much impact
to people/businesses like they use to and it is not the best way to keep
good business relationships. It reminds me when this group started the
fax attacks to Epicor and bombarded them with faxes to a point that
Epicor got overwhelmed and that still didn't get us anymore then what we
have today. So keep giving this groups your ideas, suggestions, fixes,
solutions, issues, problems and struggles so that we all can carry them
to Epicor to make a difference.

Les


From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Scott Litzau
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:30 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations



If I may inquire.

How do we as a User base in this forum get Epicor to hear\respond this
collective voice?

Scott Litzau, MCP
Olympus Flag & Banner
Information Systems Manager
scott.litzau@ <mailto:scott.litzau%40olympus-flag.com> olympus-flag.com
P: 414-365-9732
F: 414-355-1931

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
Behalf Of
pvolkert365
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:09 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations

9. When Epicor knowingly diminishes finctionality or flexibility
with a patch, I would like to know about it. When 400 came out,
there was a loss of flexibility in the serial number area. We had
become accustomed to having that flexibility. We had to scramble to
recover from that change. It would have been nice if we had known.
And by the way, in Epicor 9, that flexibility is back, and then some.

-Peter

--- In vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
"Michael McWilliams"
<mmcwilliams22@...> wrote:
>
> I agree 100% with your statement of each version standing on it's
> own.
>
> In addition the support staff should understand the differencec
> between each of the patch levels to a greater degree. When two
> techs give a complete different answer of something working or not
> on your current level there is something wrong.
> Ohh yeah and give us our money back :)
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
xorone <xorone@> wrote:
> >
> > 8. Every 'version' of Vantage should stand on it's own 2 feet.
> Whether or not you have a maintenance agreement. If I want version
> 8.03.405 to be the last version I ever upgrade to... then it should
> eventually work without flaw, bugs or workarounds.
> >
> >
> >
> > Les Hanson <lhanson@> wrote:
> > Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
> Behalf
> > Of bpbuechler
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
> > Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
> > Frustrations
> >
> > Finally...a professional approach.
> >
> > I echo everything you wrote.
> >
> > I would also add two more items:
> >
> > 6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
> > Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
> > sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
> > But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
> > long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
> > sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are
> good
> > too).
> >
> > 7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
> > maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing
> the 'how
> > do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley
helpful.
> > Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator
> classes
> > and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of
> knowledge
> > in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
> > business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-
> versa.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Patty Buechler
> > UV Color
> > Roseville, MN
> >
> > --- In vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
<mailto:vantage%
> 40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
> > Caughey <caugheyt@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as
> users,
> > like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user
base?
> > Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see
> them
> > deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they
read
> > these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation
> constructive.
> > >
> > > For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
> > >
> > > 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
> > releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and
> what
> > they plan to do about it.
> > >
> > > 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed
> when
> > a bug is reported.
> > >
> > > 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests -
especially
> > very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part
of
> > any manufacturing system.
> > >
> > > 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can
access)
> > that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
> > prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing
product
> > weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
> > >
> > > 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't
> know
> > what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems
> their
> > quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please
tell
> > us their plan?
> > >
> > > I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives
for
> > anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but
> considering
> > the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might
> be
> > worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
> > with the frustration level at the conference.
> > >
> > > So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
> > consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
> > epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
> > and constructive for the relationship.
> > >
> > > By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its
> role
> > as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
> > suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
> > solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Todd Caughey
> > > IT Manager
> > > Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> > > Woodbury, MN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > *-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s)
> can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-
> mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-
> mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your
> system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use
> them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person.
This
> e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless
> a complete contract document is attached hereto including all
> exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for
> your assistance.
> >
> > C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo>
yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
13
Sorry for the grammar mistakes.

------------------------------------------------------------------

In the beginning Epicor didn't even recognize this email group and
refused to acknowledge it for many years. The members of this email
group have struggled to get Epicor to recognized us and I am
proud of this email group when at the last Perspectives, our email group
was highly mentioned on the first day by Dan Whelan's comments. This is
fantastic for our group and shows that this group is starting to make
a difference. I would like to see us keep moving forward.

As for getting Epicor to hear us, it is just what Todd Caughey did.
Express your issues, ideas, problems and solutions to this group and
then as any/all of us talk with Epicor either through Tech Support,
CAMs, Summit meetings, Roadshows, or Perspectives let them know your
frustrations - support your fellow Vantage Vista users. Talking to
people still seems to turn the wheels of improvement. BTW, I have just
converted from Vantage 6.1 to 8.03 so I am living the pains that
everyone is talking about and I call Tech support to make the necessary
changes and fixes to make my company work successfully. This also helps
those of you that have/haven't move yet to 8.03 and maybe you won't run
into the same struggles that I have had (I hope not). I am not totally
happy either. I know that it seems that we keep hitting Epicor with the
same issues/problems and nothing seems to get done but I believe that
this group is making a difference with Epicor. I have gotten some
important things included into Vantage for my company and it has take
5-6 years to get it. If you are not ready to move off 6.1 then wait for
things to get better and then move over at your own pace. That what I
did. With the new technology that Epicor has brought to the table, I
had to make the decision to move off of 6.1 and I am starting to see it
pay off. Some of my users are actually telling me that they are working
faster, responding to our customers quicker than they did in 6.1 and
most like the new environment. Yes, I do have those users that resist
change and I am working with them but some of those uses will always
refuse the change. I have the same struggles as everyone trying to make
Epicor hear me but I have to keep trying for my company's success and
for fellow Vantage-Vista users. Like it or not we are all in it
together.

So please contact and talk with Epicor every chance you get and help
support this group. I don't think that emails are making as much impact
to people/businesses like they use to and it is not the best way to keep
good business relationships. It reminds me when this group started the
fax attacks to Epicor and bombarded them with faxes to a point that
Epicor got overwhelmed and that still didn't get us anymore then what we
have today. So keep giving this groups your ideas, suggestions, fixes,
solutions, issues, problems and struggles so that we all can carry them
to Epicor to make a difference.

Les

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Scott Litzau
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:30 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations

If I may inquire.

How do we as a User base in this forum get Epicor to hear\respond this
collective voice?

Scott Litzau, MCP
Olympus Flag & Banner
Information Systems Manager
scott.litzau@ <mailto:scott.litzau%40olympus-flag.com> olympus-flag.com
P: 414-365-9732
F: 414-355-1931

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=20369/grpspId=1705007181/msg
Id=65954/stime=1213929703/nc1=3848582/nc2=3848644/nc3=4763759>



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-* CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION - This e-mail and the attachment(s) can contain confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately with a reply e-mail and then delete this e-mail and the attachment(s) from your system. Please do not copy this e-mail or the attachment(s), or use them for any purpose, or disclose their contents to any person. This e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless a complete contract document is attached hereto including all exhibits, initialed on every page and fully executed. Thank you for your assistance.

C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
14
Les,

I am slightly encouraged by your response only because though we may express
our concerns to Epicor we are most likely expressing them to different
individuals and then is that going anywhere. Without becoming a member of
EUG this forums voice may be being heard but how seriously. And yes if I
was part of Epicor and all it turned into was a bitch session I would turn a
deaf ear on it.

I guess if Epicor would address this group directly, nay all customers
directly, about their current issues, what they are addressing, known
issues, etc..., then I would at least be able to indicate to my users the
status on some of the issues we are having. Maybe that is the most
frustrating part for me. When a user asks if it is being addressed I can
only inform them that I placed a call, or there is an enhancement request in
or Epicor indicated it is being addressed in the next release, and so on
that I do not feel like I am constantly defending the software. Because
though I may be frustrated with lack of response from Epicor I truly like
the overall product and it has help us tremendously. And after reading Vic's
reply and am more encouraged with the choice we made 2 1/2 years ago to go
with Vantage.

I will continue to keep up the good fight to have the issues resolved and
will continue to contribute and support this group that I have found
invaluable with my day to day challenges to tailor the software to our
environment and processes. We made a commitment to this and we have no plans
on changing now, just trying to improve.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Les Hanson
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:42 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations

In the beginning Epicor didn't even recognize this email group and
refused to acknowledge it for many years. This members of this email
group have struggled to be even get Epicor to recognized us and I am
proud of the email group when at the last Perspectives, our email group
was highly mentioned on the first day by Dan Whelan's comments. This is
a fantastic for our group and shows that this group is starting to make
a difference. I would like to see us keep moving forward.

As for getting Epicor to hear us, it is just what Todd Caughey did.
Express your issues, ideas, problems and solutions to this group and
then as any/all of us talk with Epicor either through Tech Support,
CAMs, Summit meetings, Roadshows, or Perspectives let them know your
frustrations - support your fellow Vantage Vista users. Talking to
people still seems to turn the wheels of improvement. BTW, I have just
converted from Vantage 6.1 to 8.03 so I am living the pains that
everyone is talking about and I call Tech support to make the necessary
changes and fixes to make my company work successfully. This also helps
those of you that have/haven't move yet to 8.03 and maybe you won't run
into the same struggles that I have had (I hope not). I am not totally
happy either. I know that it seems that we keep hitting Epicor with the
same issues/problems and nothing seems to get done but I believe that
this group is making a difference with Epicor. I have gotten some
important things included into Vantage for my company and it has take
5-6 years to get it. If you are not ready to move off 6.1 then wait for
things to get better and then move over at your own pace. That what I
did. With the new technology that Epicor has brought to the table, I
had to make the decision to move off of 6.1 and I am starting to see it
pay off. Some of my users are actually telling me that they are working
faster, responding to our customers quicker than they did in 6.1 and
most like the new environment. Yes, I do have those users that resist
change and I am working with them but some of those uses will always
refuse the change. I have the same struggles as everyone trying to make
Epicor hear me but I have to keep trying for my company's success and
for fellow Vantage-Vista users. Like it or not we are all in it
together.

So please contact and talk with Epicor every chance you get and help
support this group. I don't think that emails are making as much impact
to people/businesses like they use to and it is not the best way to keep
good business relationships. It reminds me when this group started the
fax attacks to Epicor and bombarded them with faxes to a point that
Epicor got overwhelmed and that still didn't get us anymore then what we
have today. So keep giving this groups your ideas, suggestions, fixes,
solutions, issues, problems and struggles so that we all can carry them
to Epicor to make a difference.

Les


From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Scott Litzau
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:30 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations



If I may inquire.

How do we as a User base in this forum get Epicor to hear\respond this
collective voice?

Scott Litzau, MCP
Olympus Flag & Banner
Information Systems Manager
scott.litzau@ <mailto:scott.litzau%40olympus-flag.com> olympus-flag.com
P: 414-365-9732
F: 414-355-1931

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
Behalf Of
pvolkert365
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:09 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
Frustrations

9. When Epicor knowingly diminishes finctionality or flexibility
with a patch, I would like to know about it. When 400 came out,
there was a loss of flexibility in the serial number area. We had
become accustomed to having that flexibility. We had to scramble to
recover from that change. It would have been nice if we had known.
And by the way, in Epicor 9, that flexibility is back, and then some.

-Peter

--- In vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
"Michael McWilliams"
<mmcwilliams22@...> wrote:
>
> I agree 100% with your statement of each version standing on it's
> own.
>
> In addition the support staff should understand the differencec
> between each of the patch levels to a greater degree. When two
> techs give a complete different answer of something working or not
> on your current level there is something wrong.
> Ohh yeah and give us our money back :)
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
xorone <xorone@> wrote:
> >
> > 8. Every 'version' of Vantage should stand on it's own 2 feet.
> Whether or not you have a maintenance agreement. If I want version
> 8.03.405 to be the last version I ever upgrade to... then it should
> eventually work without flaw, bugs or workarounds.
> >
> >
> >
> > Les Hanson <lhanson@> wrote:
> > Yes this is all good to. Thanks, Patty.
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
> Behalf
> > Of bpbuechler
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:26 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
> > Subject: [Vantage] Re: What Epicor Can Do To Address the 8.x
> > Frustrations
> >
> > Finally...a professional approach.
> >
> > I echo everything you wrote.
> >
> > I would also add two more items:
> >
> > 6. Longer breakout sessions for the advanced users.
> > Fifty minutes might be long enough for the 'fundamentals of...'
> > sessions which are typically for new or prospective customers.
> > But the sessions that include more of the 'meat and potatoes' run
> > long and end up getting cut short; like the roundtable and forum
> > sessions (not the indepth 4 hour sessions on Sunday...those are
> good
> > too).
> >
> > 7. Breakout sessions provided for 'like' industries. I know there
> > maybe some competitors sitting in the same room, but sharing
> the 'how
> > do you hande xyz business specific scneario' is extremley
helpful.
> > Last year I attended a couple Advanced Product Configurator
> classes
> > and was surprised and extremely impressed with the level of
> knowledge
> > in the room. I wished I could have spent more time to discuss
> > business case strategies that might be helpful to me and vise-
> versa.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Patty Buechler
> > UV Color
> > Roseville, MN
> >
> > --- In vantage@yahoogroups <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> .com
<mailto:vantage%
> 40yahoogroups.com> , Todd
> > Caughey <caugheyt@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Branching from the "Drop Epicor" thread....what would we, as
> users,
> > like to see Epicor do to address the frustration in the user
base?
> > Not simply 'fix the bugs" but rather how would you like to see
> them
> > deal with the issues raised in the other thread. We know they
read
> > these posts so here's a chance to make the conversation
> constructive.
> > >
> > > For me I would not mind seeing at Perspectives 2008...
> > >
> > > 1. A frank admission that several dot level versions and patch
> > releases have known problems (lots of problems apparently) and
> what
> > they plan to do about it.
> > >
> > > 2. Sessions devoted to explaining in detail the path followed
> when
> > a bug is reported.
> > >
> > > 3. How they divide "bugs" from enhancement requests -
especially
> > very basic real-world functionality that should be a basic part
of
> > any manufacturing system.
> > >
> > > 4. What they can do on EpicWeb (which only customers can
access)
> > that can detail known issues in various releases and what the
> > prognosis for fixes are. I know they are afraid of showing
product
> > weakness in the market but we as users have a need to know.
> > >
> > > 5. A sincere commitment to quality in their product. I don't
> know
> > what the software equivalent of ISO 9000 is but it sure seems
> their
> > quality systems and processes would not pass an audit. Please
tell
> > us their plan?
> > >
> > > I suppose it might be hard to justify attending Perspectives
for
> > anyone seriously contemplating dropping Vista/Vantage but
> considering
> > the sunk costs and the future costs for any other system it might
> be
> > worth the investment if Epicor commits quickly to dealing head-on
> > with the frustration level at the conference.
> > >
> > > So....what constructive suggestions can you make for them to
> > consider as a means to address why someone would want to "drop
> > epicor". Again, please keep it realistic, useful to the user base
> > and constructive for the relationship.
> > >
> > > By the way...what ever happened to EUG and in particular its
> role
> > as the "official voice' for the customer base? I would have a
> > suggestion for EUG too....start working with Epicor to find some
> > solutions for strengthening the customer-vendor relationship.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Todd Caughey
> > > IT Manager
> > > Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.
> > > Woodbury, MN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
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This
> e-mail communication is not intended to result in a contract unless
> a complete contract document is attached hereto including all
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> your assistance.
> >
> > C copyright by Aqua-Aerobic Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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