Thanks Michael.
About:
<the application sends data in small enough packets that normal
traffic won't even use 10% of a single NIC's bandwidth. >
I think I was under the impression that great gobs of data were shoveled over to the client for processing there so the net would be a bottleneck. I probably had that backwards from 6.1.
About:
<to load the client side .NET components into memory in order to have them
compiled and rendered in .NET. This is where the suggestion to use a RAM
drive came into play since system memory is significantly faster than
magnetic storage at retrieving data.>
RAM drive on the client? Hmmmm..... had not considered that. But X 50 clients that might be too pricey. I think I will up my memory buying though for new clients to 2GB....especially in the office areas where more/different screens are used. DC and supervisors using 1-2 screens in the plant would be pretty static so less rendered .NET impact. Those are the ones I've just recently bought with 1GB. If need be I can add 1GB to them later.
Thanks again. I think your clarifications will set the standard for future discussions on V8 performance impacts and hardware considerations.
-Todd C.
-----Original Message-----
From:
vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Michael Barry
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:34 PM
To:
vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage 8.0 Hardware
Hi Todd,
Hope all is well. Sorry I'm running off but my carpel tunnel meds are
kicking in.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From:
vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Caughey
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 1:43 PM
To:
vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage 8.0 Hardware
<I have not started our test server yet but it is on the near horizon so
this has been a subject I have been following closely. Here is a <summary
of what Ih ave scanned from previous threads as well as some educated gusses
of my own as to which way I am headed.
<1. V8 places a MUCH larger demand on both the server and the client. I was
told on the server it is maintaining many more process threads <attached to
the business logic portion of the database. This will severely impact both
CPU and memory. On the client more of the data is <actually processed there
so memory and CPU are again critical.
The server does have to include execution threads from both the database and
the application server processes (and the whole web services trifecta if
they are enabled) but Epicor has done a very studious job of client side
caching to reduce demands on the application server. Once the server
managed code is cached on the client, the application server will remain
relatively inactive until you apply a patch that affects the server managed
code. Then, the next time the client starts the application server will
have a very high intermittent load when it loads the new code to the client
and then return to relative inactivity thereafter.
The actual database load hasn't varied significantly from the prior
versions. Where it is possible to run into impacting performance is if a
number of the ancillary services are enabled like SonicMQ, Web Services,
etc. If, for some reason, they are being heavily accessed, then you have
the potential to impact the performance of the application and database
server.
<2. I have guestimated our production server will need to be at least dual
2.8Ghz+ processors (or maybe even dual dual-core?) and I am <figuring on
starting at 4GB RAM - your 1GB on the server should at the least be upped to
2GB. Also, disks as fast as I can afford. <10,000RPM has been mentioned
frequently. At a minimum dual (teamed) 1Gb NICs attached to a Gb class
switch. The rest of the network's <speed would be 100Mb unless I hear
reports that pushing gigabit speed to the clients is worthwhile. For now
all new clients are <10/100/1000 capable just incase. There has also been
some speculation in the threads of utilizing RAM disks (with real-time
writes to real <disks) to speed retrieval especially of the DB is under 2GB
or so. But the network speed will probably still be the weak link.
I can't speak to your processor estimates because I don't know how your
production environment is configured but, as it pertains to RAM, just make
sure that you have enough to run the OS, OE10 and have enough left over to
cache your entire DB if not the greatest part of it. If your DB cache hit
ratio is in the 90%+ range, there is no reason to worry about disk
performance having any significant impact on production performance. You
will gain a few minutes during a schema change with the faster disks but
they will have little to no impact on production. Dual Gigabit NIC's are
great for failover with Vantage but practically useless for load balancing
because the application sends data in small enough packets that normal
traffic won't even use 10% of a single NIC's bandwidth. Most of the time,
net traffic will be well under 1% of a Gigabit NIC's available bandwidth.
There has been some chatter about RAM disks but not on the server. The
native OE10 caching mechanism acts as a RAM disk so the idea is to have
enough system ram to allow for OE10 to cache the data.
I'm sure that someone at Epicor, maybe Doug, can quantify this assertion but
I would estimate that unless you are talking about very large installations
(500 to several thousand clients) server bandwidth accounts for < 10% of the
perceived performance of the system. You may be able to see some
improvements by improving server side latency but bandwidth doesn't seem to
be an issue.
<3. I am currently ordering 3Ghz or equivalent clients with 1GB of RAM and
feeling a little light on the RAM side. Reports are that more <(like 2GB)
is worthwhile. 512MB isn't going to cut it no matter if the CPU is faster.
I've been geatting a great price on HP DX5150 small <footprint PCs with fast
AMD processor and 1GB RAM.
You're dead on here. V8's performance perceptions stem largely from issues
surrounding rendering .NET gui components. There are some data population
issues as well to be sure but most of it has to do with .NET. There are a
couple of variables at your control on the client that can impact the
rendering. First, of course is CPU speed but this is a tricky issue. Sure
Intel has higher clock speeds but their CPU's have to pull data across the
relatively narrow Northbridge bus so they tend to have to wait on data that
is in memory. That's why Intel chips have large L1 and L2 caches, to reduce
the wait times associated with making round trips to RAM. AMD has slower
clock speeds but has an onboard memory controller so it doesn't pay the
price for waiting on primary memory. All caveats intended, based on it's
ability to move more data through memory, faster, I would be willing to bet
that the desktop champ for rendering Vantage 8 screens would be the Opteron
2 class CPU since there doesn't seem to be enough floating point activity
going on to play into the strength of Pentium chips.
The second variable within your control would be affecting the time it takes
to load the client side .NET components into memory in order to have them
compiled and rendered in .NET. This is where the suggestion to use a RAM
drive came into play since system memory is significantly faster than
magnetic storage at retrieving data. There are two important caveats to
this approach. First, since a system memory RAM drive is parasitic upon
primary system memory you will want to make absolutely sure that your client
is loaded to the gills with RAM lest you force your post JIT compiled .NET
components to be swapped to disk and eliminate your performance gains on the
back end. Second, the performance gains obtained from a system RAM disk
only apply to the initial load of the components. There would be no
performance gains thereafter.
There are other avenues to pursue as well including making sure that your
system has reasonable 2D graphics performance. Don't worry about 3D
rendering but make sure that the 2D performance of your card is adequate.
Most standard graphics cards are more than adequate these days. Latency
within the network subsystem can also affect application performance but, of
course, it doesn't pertain to rendering .NET.
<4. Don't expect to "use" V8 in quite the same way as V6.1. I am getting
hints that there are techniques, especially for record browser <screens,
that are especially inefficient in V8 when used the same way as V6.1 thus
causing a perception of slowness. Optimizing the <selections in order to
retrieve a smaller data set to the client seems to be a design intention.
Something like selecting all open <invoices on V8 being expensive time-wise
where has all open invoices for a given customer might be more acceptable
even if still slower <than 6.1.
Yes, Doug Williams made a very credible claim that user efficiency with V8
has been improved sufficiently to overshadow the perceived performance
issues with the user interface. If it is the case that users are able to
accomplish more with fewer clicks and keystrokes then it is entirely
possible that your users could be more efficient even though the system may
appear to be less so. In the end, since we really want to get the most out
of our staff, this could test out to be a laudable design tradeoff on
Epicor's part.
<5. For a true speed perspective running anything else on the server may
severely skew the results. The intranet being the worst of it <probably.
Yes. Specialize your server(s) for the best results.
Since I am on the verge of spec'ing a test server anyone else's opinions
would be highly appreciated.
-Todd C.
-----Original Message-----
From:
vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
vantage_user8
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 12:39 PM
To:
vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Vantage 8.0 Hardware
Hello everyone,
I am new to this group, so please bear with me if some of these questions
have been asked before. (I searched, but couldn't find what I was looking
for)
The company I work for is considering upgrading from 6.10 to Vantage 8.0. In
our beta tests (as am sure you all know from what I have
read) the performance in some modules has been significantly slower than
6.10.
What I am wondering is if our beta environment that we are testing in could
be playing a part in this. The beta server we are using is a Dell Poweredge
with 2 Xeon 3.0 GHZ processors and 1 GB of RAM. The server also hosts our
intranet, Backup software, and a few license servers. We are currently at
the latest patch for Vantage 8.0.
The clients we have tested 8.0 with are a P4 2.4 GHZ w 1 GB RAM and a P4 3.0
GHZ with 512 MB RAM.
The thing that I am most wondering about is the amount of RAM in the server.
I beleive that Vantage 8.0 may do better with more RAM, but not sure how
much.
For those of you who have upgraded and are running Vantage 8.0 in the
production environment (or in a beta environment with similar or better
hardware), my questions are these:
What type of hardware are you using, and has it improved the performance of
Vantage 8.0?
Has anyone achieved comparable perfomance to 6.10?, What
hardware/methods/tricks/hacks are you using to get this?
I have also received a Vantage 8.0 DB Tuning document from Epicor.
Has anyone used this and what were your results?
Thanks for your input.
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
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(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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SPONSORED LINKS
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