Progress has a deep history with Epicor dating back to Bill Borg and DCD and
they have over a decade of legacy 4GL code built up in the Vantage product
so it's little surprise that they have evolved together into OE10. As a
database, Progress's relative merits ride very closely to it's deployment
platform...Java. In general, Progress requires very little administration,
is highly scaleable and supports a wide variety of platforms. Because it
tries to remain platform agnostic, however, it lacks many of the Windows
specific integration features that users of SQL Server enjoy. Compared to
installing and maintaining say, Oracle or DB2, Progress is a breeze.
That being said, and more germane to the performance thread, Windows is
probably the worst platform on which to deploy Progress applications. The
Windows JRE is one of the least efficient in terms of its ability to utilize
OS resources and hence inherently hampers OE10 applications. Additionally,
the application server model of V8 requires so many simultaneous Java
threads to be executed that, unless you are running a quad Xeon with
hyperthreading enabled, the application will be thread bound and suffer the
accompanying performance degradation. There are ways to make application
server based applications just fly but, generally speaking, throwing them on
a PC on steroids isn't one of them.
For those with a penchant for database obscurata, you can find DB nirvana
at:
http://www.matisse.com
Michael
p.s. Thanks John!
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Frank Zeigafuse
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:33 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Spam RE: [Vantage] Re: Vantage SQL
Between you and me I think epicor is financially tied to progress someway.
My experience it is very average database.
Innovative Office Products, Inc.
Frank Zeigafuse
General Manager
610-559-6369
fzeigafuse@...
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
swinky68
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:01 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Vantage SQL
I'd like to say thanks to everyone for the info. It's been really
enlightening. My DB installation experience was different than described
below. My Vantage reps tried really hard to convince me to use Progress a
year ago. I took that to mean that Progress was #1 in their eyes. I've never
regretted our decision to use SQL and I can't wait to test this in a 2005
environment. Thanks again to everyone!
Ron Cole
IT Manager, IED Inc.
rcole@...
they have over a decade of legacy 4GL code built up in the Vantage product
so it's little surprise that they have evolved together into OE10. As a
database, Progress's relative merits ride very closely to it's deployment
platform...Java. In general, Progress requires very little administration,
is highly scaleable and supports a wide variety of platforms. Because it
tries to remain platform agnostic, however, it lacks many of the Windows
specific integration features that users of SQL Server enjoy. Compared to
installing and maintaining say, Oracle or DB2, Progress is a breeze.
That being said, and more germane to the performance thread, Windows is
probably the worst platform on which to deploy Progress applications. The
Windows JRE is one of the least efficient in terms of its ability to utilize
OS resources and hence inherently hampers OE10 applications. Additionally,
the application server model of V8 requires so many simultaneous Java
threads to be executed that, unless you are running a quad Xeon with
hyperthreading enabled, the application will be thread bound and suffer the
accompanying performance degradation. There are ways to make application
server based applications just fly but, generally speaking, throwing them on
a PC on steroids isn't one of them.
For those with a penchant for database obscurata, you can find DB nirvana
at:
http://www.matisse.com
Michael
p.s. Thanks John!
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Frank Zeigafuse
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:33 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Spam RE: [Vantage] Re: Vantage SQL
Between you and me I think epicor is financially tied to progress someway.
My experience it is very average database.
Innovative Office Products, Inc.
Frank Zeigafuse
General Manager
610-559-6369
fzeigafuse@...
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
swinky68
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:01 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Vantage SQL
I'd like to say thanks to everyone for the info. It's been really
enlightening. My DB installation experience was different than described
below. My Vantage reps tried really hard to convince me to use Progress a
year ago. I took that to mean that Progress was #1 in their eyes. I've never
regretted our decision to use SQL and I can't wait to test this in a 2005
environment. Thanks again to everyone!
Ron Cole
IT Manager, IED Inc.
rcole@...
--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "John Sykes" <john.sykes@k...> wrote:
>
> The Progress/OpenEdge bits/DBs are "Schema Holders" that map app
colums
> to the actual SQL columns/tables. No data is there -- it's just an
> additional abstraction-layer. In some sense, this is a very good
thing
> (database freedom)
>
> It bloody cool, though -- I can backup a live MS SQL database in
less
> than a minute and roll it into a test/dev instance in about the
same
> time. Run a SQL script to update the SYSTEMTASKAGENT parameters and
> change the company name (>>TEST>>KALEIDESCAPE<<TEST<<, etc.) and
we're
> off to the races.
>
> Like most of the other folks, V8 is not too fast, ever -- Michael
Barry
> posted an EXCELLENT primer on .NET that really opened my eyes to
some of
> the global performance issues associated with some .NET
implementations.
> The meat of his comments are also pasted below.
>
> Here's my canned answer to this stuff from previous posts:
>
> "I posted this in early September. While we're not in a position
to do a
> direct comparison (i.e. we don't have 8.0 on a Progress-only
> environment, too...), there seems to be no current downside to
being on
> SQL. It just works and, in our case, I don't feel like we are a
second
> class citizen since we're running on/under SQL Server. By the way,
when
> SQL Server 2005 is certified, things are likely to get even better
in
> terms of being able to manage/optimize the system. There was an
> effective presentation at Perspectives this year making that
point. My
> opinion of our SQL-based implementation has not changed in the
nearly 60
> days since the following was originally posted:
>
> We're a new Vantage 8.0.802b customer and are using SQL Server
2000. We
> did a ton of due diligence on the database selection issue and we
> learned from Epicor that prior to 8.0 there were SIGNIFICANT
advantages
> to being on Progress. With the new Progress OpenEdge 10.0
development
> environment that is the foundation for the 8.0 Vantage product,
it's my
> understanding that the gap has been substantially narrowed and
that a
> "native" Progress installation will only have a 3 to 4%
performance edge
> over a SQL-based installation. The message I got from very seasoned
> Epicor sources was "Go with what you've got -- If you're already
> supporting a SQL Server and know how to administer it, you're
better off
> sticking with it"
>
> I gave Epicor every opportunity to tell me to use Progress and they
> stuck to the "Go with what you know" line. We're not yet in
production
> and I have no historical basis for comparison, but the development
and
> test environments we're running are certainly not DB-bound from
what I
> can tell.
>
> John Sykes
> Kaleidescape, Inc."
>
> V8 Performance, posted by:
>
> Michael Barry
> Aspacia Systems Inc
> 866.566.9600
> 312.803.0730 fax
> http://www.aspacia.com/
>
> "As Bob noted earlier, the real avenue to improve application
response
> with
> V8 is with the workstation CPU and disk access. The reason for
this is
> twofold. First, .NET requires that client code residing on the
> workstation go through a JIT compiler on the first execution. That's
> why the
code
> executes slowly on the first execution and rapidly on the second.
It
> gets
> compiled and loaded into memory in its machine state for execution
> subsequent times. This is why the amount of workstation memory is
so
> critical to V8 performance. The more memory, the more compiled
code can
> be
> cached into memory for subsequent access. It's also why the local
CPU
> throughput is so important. The speed of the initial load of a V8
> module will be significantly impacted by the speed with which the
workstation
> can
> compile the .NET CRL code so a fast CPU will make a huge
difference for
> the
> user experience. Second is that the rather bloated Infragistics UI
> components that comprise the V8 interface take time to be
retrieved from
> local storage and processed. The faster the components can be
loaded
> into
> memory and compiled, the faster the user experience."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Todd Caughey
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:23 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Vantage SQL
>
> Correct me if I'm mistaken but I thought Progress OpenEdge was in
> essence a "connector" to all databases - including Progress. It
sits
> between the .net front end and the actual DB, whichever DB that
would
> be. The OpenEdge does not really "translate" Progress to SQL as
much as
> allow the business logic layer to issue DB commands. Right? -Todd C.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf
> Of Thomas Wojewoda
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:48 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Vantage SQL
>
>
> You are kidding! They wrote a .Net application and still use a DB
> connector to translate fro progress to sql? I thought they would
have
> come to their senses and gotten rid of that forsaken contraption,
the
> more I hear about 8.0, the more I look for a different solution,
> something a little more ahead of the game in IT, something that
can be
> distinguished from a Singer typewriter.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of swinky68
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:11 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: Vantage SQL
>
> We're on 805e. Performance can be a bit sluggish sometimes, but
this is
> our first Vantage install, so I can't compare to Progress. I have
> suspicions that it would be faster if it was a native SQL
application.
> Since there is a Progress "connector" between the application and
the
> database, I'd guess this could affect performance. Any of the
gurus care
> to comment on this?
>
> Ron Cole
> IT Manager, IED Inc.
> rcole@i...
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Zeigafuse" <fzeigafuse@l...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry to but in but I have questions :) What version of Vantage?
> >
> > How is performance? Did you run vantage on progress, so you can
> compare
> > performance?
> >
> > Innovative Office Products, Inc.
> > Frank Zeigafuse
> > General Manager
> > 610-559-6369
> > fzeigafuse@l...
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of
> > swinky68
> > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:59 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Vantage] Re: Vantage SQL
> >
> >
> > Hi Brinda,
> >
> > We're running Vantage on SQL. What questions do you have?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ron Cole
> > IT Manager, IED Inc.
> > rcole@i...
> >
> > --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "symmetrymedical" <brinda@o...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Do you know of any company that has gone to the SQL version of
> > > Vantage? I posted the question on the user group but the lack
of
> > > support from Epicor seems to have consummed the Vantage Group.
> If
> > you
> > > know of any companies that would be willing to talk with us we
> would
> > > appreciate an email.
> > >
> > > Brinda Whitaker
> > > Symmetry Medical Othy
> > > Brinda@o...
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
> must have
> > already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
> Builder and
> > Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ********************
> This transmission may contain information that is privileged,
> confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
If you
> are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information
contained
> herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If
you
> received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the
> sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in
electronic
> or hard copy format. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group " vantage
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links