[OT] Record Retention

Yahoo Archive
1
That's why burning CD's on occasion makes sense -- not for a complete system backup, but for archives of specific files (and databases) along the way.

Troy Funte
Liberty Electronics

----- Original Message -----
From: Todd Anderson
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:18 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retention


It gets better ...

If you save your Database to tape as a way of "Retaining" the data you will
run into -2- problems down the road.

(1) Seven years from now will you still have the same model of tape drive &
computer lying around with which to restore the tape?

(2) Will you still have the old version of the software with which to read
the Database? ( Mind you - a tape saved under version 2 of some software
package will likely not be usable if that software has since been updated to
version 11 during the course of 7 years. )

About 10 years ago the company I was working for bought another company and
then raided them for their assets and service parts business. When they
closed down the other business it had a DEC-PDP system from which they
removed the hard drives and sent them down to me as the "Saved" data. Of
course, without the DEC-PDP hardware the 20 meg removable hard drives were
useless since there was no way to cram them into our old IBM mainframe. And
even if we could have accessed the hard drives the database used was
obsolete and proprietary to the PDP platform. ( Yes, the company terminated
the PDP IS staff before figuring out how they were going to transfer the
data ... )

At any rate ... If you are considering records retention for computer data
over a 7 year window then you must figure out how to keep the required
hardware/software needed to access the data. ---OR--- whenever you upgrade
your software or hardware you have to make sure you reload the old data -
upgrade it to the new versions - and then resave it back to tape. ( things
like schema changes ). If you buy a new tape drive to replace your old
one ... first load ALL tapes to disk ... upgrade the tape drive ... and then
resave the data onto the new tapes.

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of 7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



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2
Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity, part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...
3
At 09:18 AM 10/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
>invoices with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it
>that way.")

Wow, Marty! It's refreshing to hear a finance guy who's not a pack rat,
and doesn't subscribe to "we've always done it that way" :)

When I was at Usaero, our CPA firm [that did out audits, taxes, etc]
provided a list of documents (40 or 50 specific types!) and recommended
retention times for them. Our accounting guys trusted and followed their
suggestions, and in this case most their retention times were shorted than
what we had been using.

-WC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4
I hold to the old school of record retention.......hard copies-original
invoices. Unless you are scanning those into Vantage somehow, I fail to see
how Vantage substantiates the government's auditors request for
documentation. Or your needs either.
Garbage into Vantage, Garbage out. Only hard copies of invoices can give
you the answers on verification of info. Sales tax issues are a great case
in point. Catching any fraud, etc. New Pig Corporation really is a
corporation somewhere on the eastern seaboard!?!

What are the government's standards for record retention (better still for
audits-how far back can they demand records)?......and common sense.....I've
had record cleaning parties too.......ten years of A/P invoices IS
excessive. But certainly, you want to make sure you have hard copy
documentation if audited.

Deb Wilmoth
Controller
Reeder & Kline Machine Company, Inc.
Vantage 5.0


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5
Marty,
One way to have the best of both worlds. Why not scan your documents, put them on CD's, then throw away your paper copies? Yes, it's a lot of work now, but if you plan give up the paper, remember that you can't 'undelete' from the shredder. There was a local doctor's office that changed practices. Instead of hauling their boxes and boxes of medical records for the next 20 years, they bought a sheet-fed scanner, hired a temp employee, and scanned all their records onto CD's. Now when a patient calls for records years later, the doctor can pop the CD into whatever computer he has available and print the records out. It's peace of mind for him, it's quick, easy, and timeless. .. not to mention the space savings.

Troy Funte
Liberty Electronics

----- Original Message -----
From: Marty Kuphall
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity, part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



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(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6
Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of 7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7
Do you mean that you can get in trouble for having TOO MUCH information?

Troy Funte
Liberty Electronics

----- Original Message -----
From: Shirley Graver
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of 7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




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have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
8
Let's see.....we were taught by our Dataworks guru, "God forgives, Vantage
does not." (just thought I'd date myself.)

Another way around such record retention is to change your QS definitions to
exclude purging data from Vantage - thus you would still be in compliance
with your stated standards, yes or no?

We have some data we have to keep literally ALWAYS, but other things we can
dispose of.......10 year old pay stubs are also just dust catchers, fire
hazards. We just wrote our ISO and QS standards that we made such a
distinction.

Deb Wilmoth
Controller
Reeder & Kline Machine Company, Inc.
Vantage 5.0


-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of 7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9
It gets better ...

If you save your Database to tape as a way of "Retaining" the data you will
run into -2- problems down the road.

(1) Seven years from now will you still have the same model of tape drive &
computer lying around with which to restore the tape?

(2) Will you still have the old version of the software with which to read
the Database? ( Mind you - a tape saved under version 2 of some software
package will likely not be usable if that software has since been updated to
version 11 during the course of 7 years. )

About 10 years ago the company I was working for bought another company and
then raided them for their assets and service parts business. When they
closed down the other business it had a DEC-PDP system from which they
removed the hard drives and sent them down to me as the "Saved" data. Of
course, without the DEC-PDP hardware the 20 meg removable hard drives were
useless since there was no way to cram them into our old IBM mainframe. And
even if we could have accessed the hard drives the database used was
obsolete and proprietary to the PDP platform. ( Yes, the company terminated
the PDP IS staff before figuring out how they were going to transfer the
data ... )

At any rate ... If you are considering records retention for computer data
over a 7 year window then you must figure out how to keep the required
hardware/software needed to access the data. ---OR--- whenever you upgrade
your software or hardware you have to make sure you reload the old data -
upgrade it to the new versions - and then resave it back to tape. ( things
like schema changes ). If you buy a new tape drive to replace your old
one ... first load ALL tapes to disk ... upgrade the tape drive ... and then
resave the data onto the new tapes.

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of 7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



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(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
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10
Shirley,

I would surely verify labor record retention with State/Fed
authorities. Seven years is still three short of the standard for the
state of Maine.

At 11:37 AM 10/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of 7
>years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
>and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor says
>ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
>answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
>your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
>and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
>think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
>liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
>sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What happens
>when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
>QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
>whole big can of worms opens up.
>Shirley Graver
>Systems Administrator
>Rubber Associates Inc.
>Cleveland/Akron, OH
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
>
> Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
>invoices with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it
>that
>way.") We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think
>that if
>we (or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
>part #, pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.
>
>We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
>thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
>piece of paper.
>
> Any thoughts?
> --
> Marty Kuphall
> Controller
> Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.
>
> Ph. 262-703-0455
> Fx. 262-703-0468
>
> marty.kuphall@...
11
I have purposely kept backup tapes out of any archiving and purging QS/ISO
procedures and work instructions. They belong in my opinion under disaster
recovery. I do not want anyone thinking these are for historical reference.
(Very old school)

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:19 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retention


It gets better ...

If you save your Database to tape as a way of "Retaining" the data you will
run into -2- problems down the road.

(1) Seven years from now will you still have the same model of tape drive &
computer lying around with which to restore the tape?

(2) Will you still have the old version of the software with which to read
the Database? ( Mind you - a tape saved under version 2 of some software
package will likely not be usable if that software has since been updated to
version 11 during the course of 7 years. )

About 10 years ago the company I was working for bought another company and
then raided them for their assets and service parts business. When they
closed down the other business it had a DEC-PDP system from which they
removed the hard drives and sent them down to me as the "Saved" data. Of
course, without the DEC-PDP hardware the 20 meg removable hard drives were
useless since there was no way to cram them into our old IBM mainframe. And
even if we could have accessed the hard drives the database used was
obsolete and proprietary to the PDP platform. ( Yes, the company terminated
the PDP IS staff before figuring out how they were going to transfer the
data ... )

At any rate ... If you are considering records retention for computer data
over a 7 year window then you must figure out how to keep the required
hardware/software needed to access the data. ---OR--- whenever you upgrade
your software or hardware you have to make sure you reload the old data -
upgrade it to the new versions - and then resave it back to tape. ( things
like schema changes ). If you buy a new tape drive to replace your old
one ... first load ALL tapes to disk ... upgrade the tape drive ... and then
resave the data onto the new tapes.

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of 7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



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12
Thanks for the healthy discussion.

I was merely talking of disposing of A/R (not A/P) Invoices. We reference our A/P copies often enough to justify hanging on to them for the seven years requirement. And
there is info on them that Vantage doesn't have.

A/R however, at least in our environment, is different. I can't think of an instance where the hard copy has ever been or would be different than the 'Vantage database'
copy. Once it's posted, it's done. And the payment stub from our customer doesn't have any info that is not entered into Vantage (sometimes less!). So from that standpoint,
scanning doesn't buy us much (yea, it does solve the space issue) and in our manufacturing environment we don't charge sales tax, never have and can't imagine ever will.
Currently, we do not purge or archive any data due to a combination of paranoia (on my part) and our database just isn't all that large. So Todd's excellent point of
retrieving data from a legacy system doesn't apply apply here, at least for now. The QS/ISO documentation points are well taken.

I'm going to run this past my accountant also. He's from Arthur Andersen so he'll check his GAAAP (Generally Accepted Arthur Andersen Principles) manual. I'm sure those are
compliant with all current laws!! :>)

Marty



Marty Kuphall wrote:

> Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R invoices
> with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that way.")
> We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if we
> (or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity, part #,
> pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.
>
> We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
> thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical piece
> of paper.
>
> Any thoughts?
> --
> Marty Kuphall
> Controller
> Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.
>
> Ph. 262-703-0455
> Fx. 262-703-0468
>
> marty.kuphall@...
13
We thought of that too and hinted at it in our procedures, and we also got a
long lecture from our auditor, (who is very nice and very very fair).
To whit: QS 9000 Standards Manual Page 54 Element 4.16 paragraph 1 "The
supplier shall establish and maintain documented procedures for
identification, collection, indexing, access, filing, storage, maintenance
and disposition (DISPOSAL) of quality records."

Shirley

-----Original Message-----
From: Wilmoth, Deb [mailto:Deb@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 12:16 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retention


Let's see.....we were taught by our Dataworks guru, "God forgives, Vantage
does not." (just thought I'd date myself.)

Another way around such record retention is to change your QS definitions
to
exclude purging data from Vantage - thus you would still be in compliance
with your stated standards, yes or no?

We have some data we have to keep literally ALWAYS, but other things we
can
dispose of.......10 year old pay stubs are also just dust catchers, fire
hazards. We just wrote our ISO and QS standards that we made such a
distinction.

Deb Wilmoth
Controller
Reeder & Kline Machine Company, Inc.
Vantage 5.0


-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of
7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor
says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What
happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that
if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but
I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the
physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



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have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
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have
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
14
To respond to a couple of points, we checked and should be compliant with
Ohio rules. Our procecdures read that employee records are retained for:
The tenure of the employee Plus 7 years, and that I believe is compliant for
Ohio requirements.
Troy, yes you can get into "trouble" for having too much info, I'm
responsible for the data and document control element and when it was
audited, he went into recovery, storage, purging, retension, back up
procedures, among other things, there was about an hours discussion with the
executive staff regarding why "disposal" was so important.

Shirley

-----Original Message-----
From: Troy Funte [mailto:tfunte@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:48 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Do you mean that you can get in trouble for having TOO MUCH information?

Troy Funte
Liberty Electronics

----- Original Message -----
From: Shirley Graver
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention
of 7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink
wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor
says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is
no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data
after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are
destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification
I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform
this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What
happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be
purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think
that if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice
(quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but
I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the
physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



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have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
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and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
15
I'd love to have heard the whole lecture.........good luck disposing of
Vantage records which won't be disposed of!!!!!
Am I understanding you to say, that NOT disposing of information is not an
acceptable policy according to your auditor?


Deb Wilmoth
Controller
Reeder & Kline Machine Company, Inc.
Vantage 5.0


-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 1:34 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retention


We thought of that too and hinted at it in our procedures, and we also got a
long lecture from our auditor, (who is very nice and very very fair).
To whit: QS 9000 Standards Manual Page 54 Element 4.16 paragraph 1 "The
supplier shall establish and maintain documented procedures for
identification, collection, indexing, access, filing, storage, maintenance
and disposition (DISPOSAL) of quality records."

Shirley

-----Original Message-----
From: Wilmoth, Deb [mailto:Deb@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 12:16 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retention


Let's see.....we were taught by our Dataworks guru, "God forgives, Vantage
does not." (just thought I'd date myself.)

Another way around such record retention is to change your QS definitions
to
exclude purging data from Vantage - thus you would still be in compliance
with your stated standards, yes or no?

We have some data we have to keep literally ALWAYS, but other things we
can
dispose of.......10 year old pay stubs are also just dust catchers, fire
hazards. We just wrote our ISO and QS standards that we made such a
distinction.

Deb Wilmoth
Controller
Reeder & Kline Machine Company, Inc.
Vantage 5.0


-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention of
7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor
says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What
happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that
if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but
I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the
physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
16
Marty thanks for the laugh! I'm sure the AA folks don't find that so
amusing at the moment, but your statement was a hoot.
I agree with you about A/R invoice retention.....the info you need can be
reprinted from Vantage. Although, there are a couple of customer's paid
invoices from prior fiscal years that I have found myself rooting
through......some long, ongoing contract type stuff.....

Deb Wilmoth
Controller
Reeder & Kline Machine Company, Inc.
Vantage 5.0


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 12:09 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Thanks for the healthy discussion.

I was merely talking of disposing of A/R (not A/P) Invoices. We reference
our A/P copies often enough to justify hanging on to them for the seven
years requirement. And
there is info on them that Vantage doesn't have.

A/R however, at least in our environment, is different. I can't think of an
instance where the hard copy has ever been or would be different than the
'Vantage database'
copy. Once it's posted, it's done. And the payment stub from our customer
doesn't have any info that is not entered into Vantage (sometimes less!). So
from that standpoint,
scanning doesn't buy us much (yea, it does solve the space issue) and in our
manufacturing environment we don't charge sales tax, never have and can't
imagine ever will.
Currently, we do not purge or archive any data due to a combination of
paranoia (on my part) and our database just isn't all that large. So Todd's
excellent point of
retrieving data from a legacy system doesn't apply apply here, at least for
now. The QS/ISO documentation points are well taken.

I'm going to run this past my accountant also. He's from Arthur Andersen so
he'll check his GAAAP (Generally Accepted Arthur Andersen Principles)
manual. I'm sure those are
compliant with all current laws!! :>)

Marty



Marty Kuphall wrote:

> Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
> with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
> We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if
we
> (or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
> pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.
>
> We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
> thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
piece
> of paper.
>
> Any thoughts?
> --
> Marty Kuphall
> Controller
> Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.
>
> Ph. 262-703-0455
> Fx. 262-703-0468
>
> marty.kuphall@...



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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17
I am sure Arthur Andersen will tell you to shred all evidence, I mean A/R.


Oleg Tumarkin
Intelligent Systems Integration
(330) 335-5291
olegt@...

"Making Intelligent Use of Technology"


I'm going to run this past my accountant also. He's from Arthur Andersen so
he'll check his GAAAP (Generally Accepted Arthur Andersen Principles)
manual. I'm sure those are
compliant with all current laws!! :>)

Marty



Marty Kuphall wrote:

> Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
> with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
> We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think that if
we
> (or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice (quantity,
part #,
> pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.
>
> We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but I'm
> thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the physical
piece
> of paper.
>
> Any thoughts?
> --
> Marty Kuphall
> Controller
> Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.
>
> Ph. 262-703-0455
> Fx. 262-703-0468
>
> marty.kuphall@...



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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
18
Yes, "Not" disposing of information is NOT acceptable, according to our
auditor. He was very clear about it. At some point in time "as defined in
procedure" it has to go. You can't just put in procedure that you keep it
forever. You have to define a retention period and what happens at the end
of that retention. Also, you have to take into account what is defined in a
customers quality manual. The Customer's QM takes precidence, potentially,
a customer could define a 3 year retention for certain documents, your
retention is 7 years, if an auditor happens to run across this situation and
you have a 7 year old document when your customer defined 3, guess what,
its "a MINOR nonconformance" to the standard.

Shirley

-----Original Message-----
From: Wilmoth, Deb [mailto:Deb@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 3:27 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retention


I'd love to have heard the whole lecture.........good luck disposing of
Vantage records which won't be disposed of!!!!!
Am I understanding you to say, that NOT disposing of information is not an
acceptable policy according to your auditor?


Deb Wilmoth
Controller
Reeder & Kline Machine Company, Inc.
Vantage 5.0


-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 1:34 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retention


We thought of that too and hinted at it in our procedures, and we also got
a
long lecture from our auditor, (who is very nice and very very fair).
To whit: QS 9000 Standards Manual Page 54 Element 4.16 paragraph 1 "The
supplier shall establish and maintain documented procedures for
identification, collection, indexing, access, filing, storage, maintenance
and disposition (DISPOSAL) of quality records."

Shirley

-----Original Message-----
From: Wilmoth, Deb [mailto:Deb@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 12:16 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retention


Let's see.....we were taught by our Dataworks guru, "God forgives,
Vantage
does not." (just thought I'd date myself.)

Another way around such record retention is to change your QS
definitions
to
exclude purging data from Vantage - thus you would still be in
compliance
with your stated standards, yes or no?

We have some data we have to keep literally ALWAYS, but other things we
can
dispose of.......10 year old pay stubs are also just dust catchers, fire
hazards. We just wrote our ISO and QS standards that we made such a
distinction.

Deb Wilmoth
Controller
Reeder & Kline Machine Company, Inc.
Vantage 5.0


-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Graver [mailto:shirleyg@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Record retension is still an issue here. In defense we set a retention
of
7
years. Once a year everything gets swept out, put in boxes shrink
wrapped
and put on a high shelf. then the 7th skid is dumped. Our QS auditor
says
ok fine, now how do you dump your Vantage data after 7 years. There is
no
answer, yet. Anyone with a QS cert is expected to "DISPOSE" of data
after
your retention time is up. That means paper/plastic/optical are
destroyed
and electronic is purged. The big companies that require certification
I
think have taken a lesson from the asbestos law suits. No data no
liability. Vantage, so far, does not have the capability to perform
this
sort of Purge. Are we expected to retain data into infinity? What
happens
when a part goes obsolete and a customer requires that all data be
purged?
QS certs subject you to Customer audits and if found not in compliance a
whole big can of worms opens up.
Shirley Graver
Systems Administrator
Rubber Associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron, OH


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Kuphall [mailto:marty.kuphall@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:18 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] [OT] Record Retension


Is there any reason I need to hang on to several years worth of A/R
invoices
with payment vouchers attached? (Other than "we've always done it that
way.")
We're running our of room in our storage area and it made me think
that
if
we
(or an auditor) need information regarding an old A/R invoice
(quantity,
part #,
pmt date, etc.) we can get that all through Vantage.

We've always followed the government's record retention guidelines but
I'm
thinking Vantage will keep us compliant without hangin' on to the
physical
piece
of paper.

Any thoughts?
--
Marty Kuphall
Controller
Ultra Tool & Mfg., Inc.

Ph. 262-703-0455
Fx. 262-703-0468

marty.kuphall@...



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have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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(2) To search through old msg's goto:
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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
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(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
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