Labor Posting

It sounds like there is a lot of support for additional methods of splitting
labor and burden. We support Todd's suggestion for splitting based on
Standards. We have CNC milling machines that use tombstones for mounting
parts, we can and do run two completely different jobs one may have a cycle
of 10 minutes the other a cycle of 20 minutes. To split the labor equally
just doesn't make sense.

How do we all proceed to get Epicor working on this. Version 6.0 is still
in the works and I know that the Midwest group had a list of items that we
wanted to see in 6.0. Can we get this added?
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Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck
One of the BIG weaknesses of Vantage. If a person is logged into two jobs at
ounce his time is evenly distributed between the two jobs (50/50).

Martin Nijdam (Jr. Ing.)
Suss Woodcraft Int'l
(514) 363-3565

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Metcalf [SMTP:cmetcalf@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 10:22 AM
> To: vantage@egroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Labor Posting
>
>
> Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
> clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
> into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
> and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
> time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
> Thank You
> Chuck
>
>
> We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
> please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
> (Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
> to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
> Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the
> link above will work the next time you try it.)
We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do. (i
didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate based
on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs and
the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied to
the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift the
labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second would
be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be something
similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Metcalf [mailto:cmetcalf@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 9:22 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Labor Posting



Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go to
www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My Groups,
choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the link above
will work the next time you try it.)
Mark / Charles,

I turned in a suggestion on this 4 years ago ...

The original suggestion requested that we be able to split time based on a
system switch :
(1) split time evenly
(2) split time based on pcs produced
(3) split time based on original estimate ... if you did a 1 hr job and a
4 hour job in a 5 hour window then the first job would be charged 1 hr and
the second job 4 hrs --- etc
(4) any other ways people could think of

At the time you could not split the time ... After much "Talking" I was able
to get EPICOR to split time evenly and considered that something of a
victory ... you take what you can get ...

Still, it seems like it would be fairly easy to add a configuration switch
to the system setup or to the WC master screen to allow multiple options
...

You may want to re-submit the suggestion - maybe this time you'll have more
luck then I did back then ...

FYI - 4 years ago this idea was deemed "Not Relevant" to a majority of the
Vantage customers. That's the real battle you will have to fight ...

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Trzaska, Mark [mailto:mtrzaska@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 11:17 AM
To: 'vantage@egroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting




We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do. (i
didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate based
on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs and
the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied to
the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift the
labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second would
be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be something
similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Metcalf [mailto:cmetcalf@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 9:22 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Labor Posting



Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck
Your Right It seems to me that they could have done it that long ago, but it
wasn't marketable then?

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 11:54 AM
To: 'vantage@egroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting



Mark / Charles,

I turned in a suggestion on this 4 years ago ...

The original suggestion requested that we be able to split time based on a
system switch :
(1) split time evenly
(2) split time based on pcs produced
(3) split time based on original estimate ... if you did a 1 hr job and a
4 hour job in a 5 hour window then the first job would be charged 1 hr and
the second job 4 hrs --- etc
(4) any other ways people could think of

At the time you could not split the time ... After much "Talking" I was able
to get EPICOR to split time evenly and considered that something of a
victory ... you take what you can get ...

Still, it seems like it would be fairly easy to add a configuration switch
to the system setup or to the WC master screen to allow multiple options
...

You may want to re-submit the suggestion - maybe this time you'll have more
luck then I did back then ...

FYI - 4 years ago this idea was deemed "Not Relevant" to a majority of the
Vantage customers. That's the real battle you will have to fight ...

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Trzaska, Mark [mailto:mtrzaska@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 11:17 AM
To: 'vantage@egroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting




We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do. (i
didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate based
on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs and
the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied to
the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift the
labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second would
be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be something
similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Metcalf [mailto:cmetcalf@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 9:22 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Labor Posting



Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck




We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go to
www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My Groups,
choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the link above
will work the next time you try it.)
If an employee is running three jobs at the same time. Lets assume that each
job is equal, same time, same amount of parts. Does Vantage split the time
into three and then apply 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 to each job.
Chuck



Your Right It seems to me that they could have done it that long ago, but it
wasn't marketable then?




Mark / Charles,

I turned in a suggestion on this 4 years ago ...

The original suggestion requested that we be able to split time based on a
system switch :
(1) split time evenly
(2) split time based on pcs produced
(3) split time based on original estimate ... if you did a 1 hr job and a
4 hour job in a 5 hour window then the first job would be charged 1 hr and
the second job 4 hrs --- etc
(4) any other ways people could think of

At the time you could not split the time ... After much "Talking" I was able
to get EPICOR to split time evenly and considered that something of a
victory ... you take what you can get ...

Still, it seems like it would be fairly easy to add a configuration switch
to the system setup or to the WC master screen to allow multiple options
...

You may want to re-submit the suggestion - maybe this time you'll have more
luck then I did back then ...

FYI - 4 years ago this idea was deemed "Not Relevant" to a majority of the
Vantage customers. That's the real battle you will have to fight ...

Todd Anderson




We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do. (i
didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate based
on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs and
the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied to
the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift the
labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second would
be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be something
similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.




Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck
Yes, If you have the split labor switch turned on ...

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Metcalf [mailto:cmetcalf@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 1:09 PM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting



If an employee is running three jobs at the same time. Lets assume that each
job is equal, same time, same amount of parts. Does Vantage split the time
into three and then apply 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 to each job.
Chuck


Your Right It seems to me that they could have done it that long ago, but it
wasn't marketable then?



Mark / Charles,

I turned in a suggestion on this 4 years ago ...

The original suggestion requested that we be able to split time based on a
system switch :
(1) split time evenly
(2) split time based on pcs produced
(3) split time based on original estimate ... if you did a 1 hr job and a
4 hour job in a 5 hour window then the first job would be charged 1 hr and
the second job 4 hrs --- etc
(4) any other ways people could think of

At the time you could not split the time ... After much "Talking" I was able
to get EPICOR to split time evenly and considered that something of a
victory ... you take what you can get ...

Still, it seems like it would be fairly easy to add a configuration switch
to the system setup or to the WC master screen to allow multiple options
...

You may want to re-submit the suggestion - maybe this time you'll have more
luck then I did back then ...

FYI - 4 years ago this idea was deemed "Not Relevant" to a majority of the
Vantage customers. That's the real battle you will have to fight ...

Todd Anderson




We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do. (i
didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate based
on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs and
the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied to
the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift the
labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second would
be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be something
similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.




Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck
Chuck:
Yes, Vantage splits it-- but you need to look at the BURDEN on those three
jobs-currently in 3.0 the total burden is added to each job, which could
really drive up cost. Right now, we are manually going into Labor Edit and
changing the burden to reflect the time spent on each job. We were told,
some time ago, that there are changes in this method coming.
LOOK at the PRODUCTION DETAIL REPORT. This report, although very complex to
read, gives you lots and lots of important info, and reflects the
up-to-the-minute status of a job.

Lydia



If an employee is running three jobs at the same time. Lets assume that each
job is equal, same time, same amount of parts. Does Vantage split the time
into three and then apply 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 to each job.
Chuck
Help, where is the split labor box to check.

Yes, If you have the split labor switch turned on ...




If an employee is running three jobs at the same time. Lets assume that each
job is equal, same time, same amount of parts. Does Vantage split the time
into three and then apply 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 to each job.
Chuck


Your Right It seems to me that they could have done it that long ago, but it
wasn't marketable then?



Mark / Charles,

I turned in a suggestion on this 4 years ago ...

The original suggestion requested that we be able to split time based on a
system switch :
(1) split time evenly
(2) split time based on pcs produced
(3) split time based on original estimate ... if you did a 1 hr job and a
4 hour job in a 5 hour window then the first job would be charged 1 hr and
the second job 4 hrs --- etc
(4) any other ways people could think of

At the time you could not split the time ... After much "Talking" I was able
to get EPICOR to split time evenly and considered that something of a
victory ... you take what you can get ...

Still, it seems like it would be fairly easy to add a configuration switch
to the system setup or to the WC master screen to allow multiple options
...

You may want to re-submit the suggestion - maybe this time you'll have more
luck then I did back then ...

FYI - 4 years ago this idea was deemed "Not Relevant" to a majority of the
Vantage customers. That's the real battle you will have to fight ...

Todd Anderson




We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do. (i
didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate based
on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs and
the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied to
the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift the
labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second would
be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be something
similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.




Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck
Has this been changed in 4.0


Chuck:
Yes, Vantage splits it-- but you need to look at the BURDEN on those three
jobs-currently in 3.0 the total burden is added to each job, which could
really drive up cost. Right now, we are manually going into Labor Edit and
changing the burden to reflect the time spent on each job. We were told,
some time ago, that there are changes in this method coming.
LOOK at the PRODUCTION DETAIL REPORT. This report, although very complex to
read, gives you lots and lots of important info, and reflects the
up-to-the-minute status of a job.

Lydia



If an employee is running three jobs at the same time. Lets assume that each
job is equal, same time, same amount of parts. Does Vantage split the time
into three and then apply 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 to each job.
Chuck
In 3.0 if you mark Labor = Burden, the burden will go the same route as the
labor goes. It can be marked in the workcenter master file.
Nora

-----Original Message-----
From: Lydia Coffman [SMTP:lcoffman@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 1:20 PM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting


Chuck:
Yes, Vantage splits it-but you need to look at the BURDEN on those three
jobs-currently in 3.0 the total burden is added to each job, which could
really drive up cost. Right now, we are manually going into Labor Edit and
changing the burden to reflect the time spent on each job. We were told,
some time ago, that there are changes in this method coming.
LOOK at the PRODUCTION DETAIL REPORT. This report, although very complex
to read, gives you lots and lots of important info, and reflects the
up-to-the-minute status of a job.
Lydia


If an employee is running three jobs at the same time. Lets assume that
each job is equal, same time, same amount of parts. Does Vantage split the
time into three and then apply 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 to each job.
Chuck
Charles,

Second time this week I've been wrong - hate that when it happens ...

Look at W/C master screen - "split burden" and "burden = labor" ... looks
like the current setup is that labor is always split and burden can be split
2 ways.

I'd like to see one option for labor and one option for burden - each with a
drop down selection for different ways of handling each.

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Metcalf [mailto:cmetcalf@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 1:35 PM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting




Help, where is the split labor box to check.

Yes, If you have the split labor switch turned on ...




If an employee is running three jobs at the same time. Lets assume that each
job is equal, same time, same amount of parts. Does Vantage split the time
into three and then apply 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 to each job.
Chuck


Your Right It seems to me that they could have done it that long ago, but it
wasn't marketable then?



Mark / Charles,

I turned in a suggestion on this 4 years ago ...

The original suggestion requested that we be able to split time based on a
system switch :
(1) split time evenly
(2) split time based on pcs produced
(3) split time based on original estimate ... if you did a 1 hr job and a
4 hour job in a 5 hour window then the first job would be charged 1 hr and
the second job 4 hrs --- etc
(4) any other ways people could think of

At the time you could not split the time ... After much "Talking" I was able
to get EPICOR to split time evenly and considered that something of a
victory ... you take what you can get ...

Still, it seems like it would be fairly easy to add a configuration switch
to the system setup or to the WC master screen to allow multiple options
...

You may want to re-submit the suggestion - maybe this time you'll have more
luck then I did back then ...

FYI - 4 years ago this idea was deemed "Not Relevant" to a majority of the
Vantage customers. That's the real battle you will have to fight ...

Todd Anderson


We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do. (i
didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate based
on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs and
the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied to
the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift the
labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second would
be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be something
similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.


Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck
I have been having major problems with the labor posting and setup. If I
have 1 man working on 6 jobs for 1 hour will Vantage split the labour on a
production detail report to show 10 minutes for each job irrelevant if the
work centre is on split/burden or labor = burden. Please feedback would help
me!!.

Regards,
Mark Howard



---Original Message-----
> From: Todd Anderson [SMTP:tanderson@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 5:33 AM
> To: 'vantage@egroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting
>
>
> Charles,
>
> Second time this week I've been wrong - hate that when it happens ...
>
> Look at W/C master screen - "split burden" and "burden = labor" ... looks
> like the current setup is that labor is always split and burden can be
> split
> 2 ways.
>
> I'd like to see one option for labor and one option for burden - each with
> a
> drop down selection for different ways of handling each.
>
> Todd Anderson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Metcalf [mailto:cmetcalf@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 1:35 PM
> To: vantage@egroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting
>
>
>
>
> Help, where is the split labor box to check.
>
> Yes, If you have the split labor switch turned on ...
>
>
>
>
> If an employee is running three jobs at the same time. Lets assume that
> each
> job is equal, same time, same amount of parts. Does Vantage split the time
> into three and then apply 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 to each job.
> Chuck
>
>
> Your Right It seems to me that they could have done it that long ago, but
> it
> wasn't marketable then?
>
>
>
> Mark / Charles,
>
> I turned in a suggestion on this 4 years ago ...
>
> The original suggestion requested that we be able to split time based on a
> system switch :
> (1) split time evenly
> (2) split time based on pcs produced
> (3) split time based on original estimate ... if you did a 1 hr job and
> a
> 4 hour job in a 5 hour window then the first job would be charged 1 hr and
> the second job 4 hrs --- etc
> (4) any other ways people could think of
>
> At the time you could not split the time ... After much "Talking" I was
> able
> to get EPICOR to split time evenly and considered that something of a
> victory ... you take what you can get ...
>
> Still, it seems like it would be fairly easy to add a configuration switch
> to the system setup or to the WC master screen to allow multiple options
> ...
>
> You may want to re-submit the suggestion - maybe this time you'll have
> more
> luck then I did back then ...
>
> FYI - 4 years ago this idea was deemed "Not Relevant" to a majority of the
> Vantage customers. That's the real battle you will have to fight ...
>
> Todd Anderson
>
>
> We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do.
> (i
> didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate
> based
> on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs
> and
> the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
> calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied to
> the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift
> the
> labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second
> would
> be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be something
> similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.
>
>
> Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
> clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
> into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
> and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
> time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
> Thank You
> Chuck
>
>
>
> We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
> please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
> (Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
> to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
> Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the
> link above will work the next time you try it.)
This subject directly relates to a problem we've been pondering since
going live in November 99 - ie getting actual run-times for laser-cut
parts. If an operator loads one sheet onto one of our laser machines, he
can be producing 1 of part 1, 20 of part 2, 100 of part 3 etc. etc..
Does anyone else manage to get meaningfull 'actual' run-times in such a
scenario? There must be a lot of you using punch / laser machines
bearing in mind the supposed history of Vantage- how are you managing?

I would tend to push for possibility 3 suggested by Todd (below) - that
is to split the actual run-times by the same ratio as the estimated
times. i.e if part 1 was estimated as having twice the run-time of part
2 then the actual single part run-times would be split in the same way.

This seems like a substantially universal requirement of Vantage,
particularly amongst steel fabrication companies as ourselves ??

Nigel Roberts
Systems Manager
MC Sheet Metal Ltd.
Wales, UK.

-----Original Message-----

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:53:53 -0500
From: Todd Anderson <tanderson@...>
Subject: RE: Labor Posting

Mark / Charles,

I turned in a suggestion on this 4 years ago ...

The original suggestion requested that we be able to split time based on
a
system switch :
(1) split time evenly
(2) split time based on pcs produced
(3) split time based on original estimate ... if you did a 1 hr job
and a
4 hour job in a 5 hour window then the first job would be charged 1 hr
and
the second job 4 hrs --- etc
(4) any other ways people could think of

At the time you could not split the time ... After much "Talking" I was
able
to get EPICOR to split time evenly and considered that something of a
victory ... you take what you can get ...

Still, it seems like it would be fairly easy to add a configuration
switch
to the system setup or to the WC master screen to allow multiple
options
...

You may want to re-submit the suggestion - maybe this time you'll have
more
luck then I did back then ...

FYI - 4 years ago this idea was deemed "Not Relevant" to a majority of
the
Vantage customers. That's the real battle you will have to fight ...

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Trzaska, Mark [mailto:mtrzaska@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 11:17 AM
To: 'vantage@egroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting




We have employees that run 3 to sometimes 4 machines. What we had to do.
(i
didn't make this) was create an excel spreadsheet that would calculate
based
on jobs and # of machines. For example if someone is running three jobs
and
the first job they make 200 pc second 50pc third 25pc the spreadsheet
calculates that based on number of pcs done more labor would be applied
to
the 200pc job then the 25pc job. So if the person works 8.5 hours shift
the
labor hours or the 200pc would be lets say 5.7 labor hours, the second
would
be 2.0 the third 0.8. These numbers are guess's, but it would be
something
similiar to that. Burden hours would be the full 8.5 for all three jobs.

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Metcalf [mailto:cmetcalf@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 9:22 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Labor Posting



Can someone tell me how time is distributed when an employee is
clocked into two jobs at the same time. We have arranged our shop
into cells, making it possible for one employee to run two machines,
and two or more jobs at the same time, but I do not understand how
time is distributed as far as costing the jobs.
Thank You
Chuck
Mark,

To answer your first question. Yes, Vantage would charge 10 minutes to each
job.

The split/burden and burden = labor have no effect on the labor time charged
to a job. They are specifically designed for how you want to apply burden.
With the split/burden selected each of the jobs your employee worked would
be charged 10 minutes labor and 1 hour burden, in my opinion not a good
option.

We use Labor = Burden, which applies the same amount of time to labor as it
does to burden. Thus in your example, 10 minutes would be charge to labor
and 10 minutes would be charged to burden for each job your employee worked
on.

A lot has been said relating to this topic, mostly negative. It is my
opinion that the Vantage method of calculating this is probably the most
universal and accurate means possible to assign labor as it is being entered
via data collection. When we were reviewing ERP systems for purchase I gave
much thought to how we did things our OLD way and where it needed to go to
allow the information to be entered in real time from the floor. Our old
method used calculations that could not be performed until all jobs had been
completed for the day, standard rates ( which are not always accurate )
calculated, the total earned hours totaled, and divide the total worked
hours by the total earned hours, then multiply this figure by the earned
hours for each job the employee worked on to get the "approximated" labor
hours! How could this be performed in real time??? The Vantage solution
does this in real time and gives you probably a better approx. time then our
old method. You still are applying 8 hours of that persons time to several
jobs. Now we know that he ran two machines for X amount of time and it
costed you X times his labor rate. Each job/machine requires the same
amount of work to run, thus split the time equivalently between the jobs.
Simple.

It wouldn't work for us to use qty completed to calculate the labor hours
since it takes longer to cut up a bar of steel if you take 1" at a time vs.
12" at a time. You would have to use the standard rate similar to our old
method.

I guess what I am trying to say is thanks Todd, I think you had a good idea
when you got them to split it evenly.

My two cents,

Darren Mann
Miller Products Co.
Mark,

Since I screwed up this answer yesterday I'll try to get it right this time.

1) Vantage always splits labor evenly.

2) Burden can be split 3 ways:

a) "Split Burden" = Use when multiple employees will be working on the same
WC at the same time ... as in:

Emp # 1 - 7:00 - 8:00 - Labor = 1 hr .... Burden = 45 minutes
Emp # 2 - 7:30 - 8:30 - Labor = 1 hr .... Burden = 45 minutes

b) "Labor = Burden" = Use when 1 man / 1 machine is running multiple jobs
at the same time ... as in:

Emp # 1 - Job # 1 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 1 hr
Emp # 1 - Job # 2 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 1 hr

or

Emp # 1 - Job # 1 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 1 hr
Emp # 1 - Job # 2 - 7:00 - 11:00 - Labor = 3 hr - Burden = 3 hr

*** In this case the period from 7:00 to 9:00 is split and the time
from 9:00 to 11:00 is not.

c) std rules ( a or b not checked ) = Use this when you have 1 man / 1
machine / 1 job .. as in:

Emp # 1 - Job # 1 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 2 hr - Burden = 2 hr

or - IF you try to run multiple jobs you will get the following

Emp # 1 - Job # 1 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 2 hr
Emp # 1 - Job # 2 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 2 hr

*** In this case the burden cost is reported as 4 hours instead of the
2 actually used.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The fundamental flaw in this logic remains that labor and burden, if split,
are always split evenly.

A much more accurate view would be to have several options for how the labor
and burden should be split - IF they are split.

I would suggest the following options:

1) Split labor and burden evenly if they are to be split

2) Split labor and burden proportionately according the original estimate.


You run 2 jobs at the same time and record 10 hours total. The original
estimate was for job 1 to take 1 hour and job 2 to take 4 hours. ( ie. your
estimates weren't even close ) Actual time should be 2 hours to job 1 and
8 hours to job 2.

3) Split labor and burden proportionately according to actual qty produced.
( same basic logic as Option 2 )

Note that NONE of these options are going to be perfectly accurate but in
many cases options 2 and 3 would be far closer to the "Truth".

I presented this to EPICOR four years ago as a suggestion because when we
run our laser or flame cut tables we frequently run multiple jobs from one
plate. At the time the response from EPICOR was that this logic did NOT
apply to most of their customers because MOST of their customers did not run
laser or flame cut tables.

Hopefully the above babble makes more sense than the junk I posted
yesterday. ( A VERY blond day ... )

Todd Anderson
J. Rubin & Co.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Howard [mailto:speed@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 5:29 PM
To: 'vantage@egroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting




I have been having major problems with the labor posting and setup. If I
have 1 man working on 6 jobs for 1 hour will Vantage split the labour on a
production detail report to show 10 minutes for each job irrelevant if the
work centre is on split/burden or labor = burden. Please feedback would help
me!!.

Regards,
Mark Howard
Group,

It is amazing what excuses you can come up with when you don't want to do
something. The same scenario applies to turret punches, cnc routers, glass
cutting machines, and others. It is important for a company to have correct
labor costs to see if we are competitive. In today's global economy where
you can be competing against a company in China it is extremely important.

Chuck

Mark,

Since I screwed up this answer yesterday I'll try to get it right this time.

1) Vantage always splits labor evenly.

2) Burden can be split 3 ways:

a) "Split Burden" = Use when multiple employees will be working on the same
WC at the same time ... as in:

Emp # 1 - 7:00 - 8:00 - Labor = 1 hr .... Burden = 45 minutes
Emp # 2 - 7:30 - 8:30 - Labor = 1 hr .... Burden = 45 minutes

b) "Labor = Burden" = Use when 1 man / 1 machine is running multiple jobs
at the same time ... as in:

Emp # 1 - Job # 1 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 1 hr
Emp # 1 - Job # 2 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 1 hr

or

Emp # 1 - Job # 1 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 1 hr
Emp # 1 - Job # 2 - 7:00 - 11:00 - Labor = 3 hr - Burden = 3 hr

*** In this case the period from 7:00 to 9:00 is split and the time
from 9:00 to 11:00 is not.

c) std rules ( a or b not checked ) = Use this when you have 1 man / 1
machine / 1 job .. as in:

Emp # 1 - Job # 1 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 2 hr - Burden = 2 hr

or - IF you try to run multiple jobs you will get the following

Emp # 1 - Job # 1 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 2 hr
Emp # 1 - Job # 2 - 7:00 - 9:00 - Labor = 1 hr - Burden = 2 hr

*** In this case the burden cost is reported as 4 hours instead of the
2 actually used.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The fundamental flaw in this logic remains that labor and burden, if split,
are always split evenly.

A much more accurate view would be to have several options for how the labor
and burden should be split - IF they are split.

I would suggest the following options:

1) Split labor and burden evenly if they are to be split

2) Split labor and burden proportionately according the original estimate.


You run 2 jobs at the same time and record 10 hours total. The original
estimate was for job 1 to take 1 hour and job 2 to take 4 hours. ( ie. your
estimates weren't even close ) Actual time should be 2 hours to job 1 and
8 hours to job 2.

3) Split labor and burden proportionately according to actual qty produced.
( same basic logic as Option 2 )

Note that NONE of these options are going to be perfectly accurate but in
many cases options 2 and 3 would be far closer to the "Truth".

I presented this to EPICOR four years ago as a suggestion because when we
run our laser or flame cut tables we frequently run multiple jobs from one
plate. At the time the response from EPICOR was that this logic did NOT
apply to most of their customers because MOST of their customers did not run
laser or flame cut tables.

Hopefully the above babble makes more sense than the junk I posted
yesterday. ( A VERY blond day ... )

Todd Anderson
J. Rubin & Co.


I have been having major problems with the labor posting and setup. If I
have 1 man working on 6 jobs for 1 hour will Vantage split the labour on a
production detail report to show 10 minutes for each job irrelevant if the
work centre is on split/burden or labor = burden. Please feedback would help
me!!.

Regards,
Mark Howard
Todd,

I hope this isn't a blond day for me!

> You run 2 jobs at the same time and record 10 hours total.
> The original
> estimate was for job 1 to take 1 hour and job 2 to take 4
> hours. ( ie. your
> estimates weren't even close ) Actual time should be 2
> hours to job 1 and
> 8 hours to job 2.
>
I can not see the logic here. Perhaps your situation is different from ours.
If both jobs are running simultaneously, 10 hours TOTAL would equate to
machine run time of 5 hours, thus your estimate was for 1 hour and you took
5 hours, therefore the hours vantage would set is closer to actual of 5
hours than the 2 hours you say should be charged to the job.

Job 1 - 7:00 to 12:00 (5 hours) = 2.5 hours
Job 2 - 7:00 to 12:00 (5 hours) = 2.5 hours

Now, assuming you meant that both jobs ran for 10 hours, machine runtime
would be 10 hours each job and Vantage would charge 5 hours to both. Which
is better than you proposed 2/8 split. If you estimated 1 hour; something
is really wrong, but for the sake of argument I would rather charge 5 hours
on a 10 hour runtime than 2. By doing so you have placed more of the time
on the job that exceeded the projected time instead of covering up a huge
error on the estimate.

Job 1 - 7:00 to 4:00 (10 hours) = 5 hours
Job 2 - 7:00 to 4:00 (10 hours) = 5 hours

Does Vantage only split the time that the employee is clocked into both
jobs?

Job 1 - 7:00 to 11:00 (4 hours) = 2 hours
Job 2 - 7:00 to 1:00 (6 hours) = 4 hours


If you hired someone to mow your yard and he brings a buddy to help, you pay
the guy $20 for mowing your yard. Both people mow the same amount of time.
How would they split the $20??

> 3) Split labor and burden proportionately according to
> actual qty produced.
> ( same basic logic as Option 2 )

> Note that NONE of these options are going to be perfectly
> accurate but in
> many cases options 2 and 3 would be far closer to the "Truth".
>

For this to be a viable solution, you would have to factor in the production
standard to allow for different machine rates and material feed rates.
Quantity alone is not a good determinant for labor calculations, too many
other factors affect it.

Since, both option 2 & 3 deal essentially with the same determinant; the
production rate. Estimated hours are calculated based on the standard rate
and run qty. If you merge the two options you propose to add you arrive at
the production rate. It is my opinion that only two possible options could
exist to split labor, splitting evenly or using the standard rate to apply a
proportional multiplier based on total runtime divided by total earned
hours.


Sorry to disagree with you Todd, but I think you are the right track.

Regards
Darren Mann
Miller Products Co,
Darren,

Here's the difference. You're assumption is that the machine is generating
2 jobs "Simultaneously". For Laser, Flame Cut, Plasma Cut, etc type
machines you load a large plate of material on the machine and then load a
program that will cut multiple jobs from the same plate using nesting logic
to get the maximum number of parts from one plate. ( little parts tucked
into the holes around big parts - etc. ).

In this case you aren't exactly producing multiple jobs "At the same time"
... but they are so inter-woven that you have no way of starting and
stopping specific jobs. Hence the need to be able to start multiple jobs -
run for 4-10 hours and then when you hit stop - have the system break down
the time amongst the jobs in proportion to the original estimate.

For instance: We may take 1 order for 1 piece that is 8" by 8" PLUS 1 order
for 10 pieces that are 15" x 3" PLUS 1 order for 20 pieces that are 20" x
35" and irregular ... all 3 jobs might be nested out of plate of steel that
is 96" x 240". Should the order for 1 piece that is 8" x 8" be charged for
1/3 of the time that was used to burn the plate ?

This logic does not generally apply to lathes, mills, etc. where you tend to
run jobs in a serial mode one after another.

Using logic that split's the actual time in pro-portion to the original
estimate is far more accurate although it does make the assumption that if
it takes you 20% longer for the overall run then all jobs on the plate MUST
have been 20 % off on the original estimate which probably is NOT the case
but I do not know how you would make it any more accurate without doing
manual time cards.

Make sense ?

Todd Anderson
J. Rubin & Co.

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Mann [mailto:dmann@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 10:53 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Posting




Todd,

I hope this isn't a blond day for me!

> You run 2 jobs at the same time and record 10 hours total.
> The original
> estimate was for job 1 to take 1 hour and job 2 to take 4
> hours. ( ie. your
> estimates weren't even close ) Actual time should be 2
> hours to job 1 and
> 8 hours to job 2.
>
I can not see the logic here. Perhaps your situation is different from ours.
If both jobs are running simultaneously, 10 hours TOTAL would equate to
machine run time of 5 hours, thus your estimate was for 1 hour and you took
5 hours, therefore the hours vantage would set is closer to actual of 5
hours than the 2 hours you say should be charged to the job.

Job 1 - 7:00 to 12:00 (5 hours) = 2.5 hours
Job 2 - 7:00 to 12:00 (5 hours) = 2.5 hours

Now, assuming you meant that both jobs ran for 10 hours, machine runtime
would be 10 hours each job and Vantage would charge 5 hours to both. Which
is better than you proposed 2/8 split. If you estimated 1 hour; something
is really wrong, but for the sake of argument I would rather charge 5 hours
on a 10 hour runtime than 2. By doing so you have placed more of the time
on the job that exceeded the projected time instead of covering up a huge
error on the estimate.

Job 1 - 7:00 to 4:00 (10 hours) = 5 hours
Job 2 - 7:00 to 4:00 (10 hours) = 5 hours

Does Vantage only split the time that the employee is clocked into both
jobs?

Job 1 - 7:00 to 11:00 (4 hours) = 2 hours
Job 2 - 7:00 to 1:00 (6 hours) = 4 hours


If you hired someone to mow your yard and he brings a buddy to help, you pay
the guy $20 for mowing your yard. Both people mow the same amount of time.
How would they split the $20??

> 3) Split labor and burden proportionately according to
> actual qty produced.
> ( same basic logic as Option 2 )

> Note that NONE of these options are going to be perfectly
> accurate but in
> many cases options 2 and 3 would be far closer to the "Truth".
>

For this to be a viable solution, you would have to factor in the production
standard to allow for different machine rates and material feed rates.
Quantity alone is not a good determinant for labor calculations, too many
other factors affect it.

Since, both option 2 & 3 deal essentially with the same determinant; the
production rate. Estimated hours are calculated based on the standard rate
and run qty. If you merge the two options you propose to add you arrive at
the production rate. It is my opinion that only two possible options could
exist to split labor, splitting evenly or using the standard rate to apply a
proportional multiplier based on total runtime divided by total earned
hours.


Sorry to disagree with you Todd, but I think you are the right track.

Regards
Darren Mann
Miller Products Co,

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