Labor Edit/Collection Errors

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1
Todd,
We are having this problem (4.904).
It has been limited to our night shift 10:00 pm to 7:30 am.
Labor edit is only done during the first shift 8:00 am to 5 Pm.
This happens once in a while, not every day,(thought it seems to be getting
worse. Not every one on night shift.
Wendy has been trying to help us also.
Nancy

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Caughey [mailto:caugheyt@...]
Is there any chance that those who see it only
for 2nd shift are doing labor entry as a batch once a day in the afternoon
when 2nd shift is active?

-Todd C.
2
Since several people said they too see errors on the labor edit report I am
going to post my "clues" and progress tracking this down. Perhaps, along
with info on the symptoms from other people, we can all figure this out. I
called and spoke to Wendy in Production/Support at Epicor and she is well
aware of the issue but can not duplicate it. She has the database from a
customer who has reported this and will be working to try to duplicate it.

Here are the symptoms I am seeing. It would be very helpful if anyone else
seeing this problem could contribute their clues and perhaps a pattern will
emerge which can help Wendy track this down.

1. ALL of our work centers are marked "Labor = Burden" we don't split
burden
2. Randomly various people have their labor hrs cut roughly in half - most
often exactly in half
3. If a person has any jobs cut in half ALL of their jobs that day will be
halved
4. Sometimes someone else is on the same job/seq/oper at the same time but
often not
5. If another person is on the job/seq/oper at the same time their time is
NOT cut in half
6. If another is on the job for even a small amount of the time the one cut
is totally in half, not just for the overlap time
7. It affects all shifts (sorry Nancy). I had one today on first shift.
95% have been second shift.
8. The 1st shift person today did actually clock in to 1st shift (verified
in Labor Head)
9. It happens when a person is on only one job all day (not on two jobs at
once)
10. Not sure if it happened when person is on two jobs at same time (rare
here)
11. It happens to (P)roduction, (S)etup and (I)ndirect labor types
12. It does not happen every day - two days in a row were error free this
week
13. Does not correlate to any other work center settings (machines,
hrs/machine/crew size, split oper)
14. Does not correlate to operations and any settings there
15. We are using Data Collection via PCs running just the Data Collection
portion of Vantage


Clues I am looking for / things I am trying:
1. Trying to gather enough data to create a histogram of # incidents by
person, job, workcenter
2. I have a report that shows LaborHrs <> (Clock-out - Clock-in) that gets
run daily before adjustments are made to catch the bad ones early and allow
me to capture clues prior to the adjustments.

I am not sure if Wendy or anyone in production monitors messages here so if
you have any other clues please post them here and I would be happy to
compile the whole list and forward them to her. Making all the adjustments
to fix the times is costing us a bundle in personnel time every day and I am
sure this is true for anyone else seeing this issue. Any help we can
provide Epicor might result in a fix or workaround happening sooner rather
than later (or never).

Thanks,
-Todd Caughey
Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
3
Todd,

Our situation is slightly similar. We use data collection with
three shifts. Most of the problems we've observed occur on second
shift. Here is what we see:

1 2nd-shift employee clocks on to a job/op at start of shift.

2 Employee stays on that operation for the entire shift.

3 Home-grown labor audit report confirms that employee remains
on the operation when sampled throughout the shift.

4 When employee clocks out of job and shift, all labor time is
thrown into Indirect/Idle. Labor hours on the job/op are 0,
payroll hours are 8, Indirect hours are 8.

5 Clock out is always after midnight.

This seems to have started at some point in the 4.00.90? series
of patches.

thanks,
john



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Caughey [mailto:caugheyt@...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:04 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors
4
Just a wild thought to add, to see if an old problem is reoccurring, are any
of your shifts starting or ending exactly at midnight?

-----Original Message-----
From: John Sage [mailto:jsage@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:37 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors


Todd,

Our situation is slightly similar. We use data collection with
three shifts. Most of the problems we've observed occur on second
shift. Here is what we see:

1 2nd-shift employee clocks on to a job/op at start of shift.

2 Employee stays on that operation for the entire shift.

3 Home-grown labor audit report confirms that employee remains
on the operation when sampled throughout the shift.

4 When employee clocks out of job and shift, all labor time is
thrown into Indirect/Idle. Labor hours on the job/op are 0,
payroll hours are 8, Indirect hours are 8.

5 Clock out is always after midnight.

This seems to have started at some point in the 4.00.90? series
of patches.

thanks,
john



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Caughey [mailto:caugheyt@...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:04 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors





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5
Patrick,

Maybe. The 2nd shift starts at 15:30 and ends at midnight. We
have a 10-hour shift that starts at 15:30 and ends at 02:00, I
will review our idle-time reports and see if it is also impacted.

thanks,
John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Winter, Patrick [mailto:pjw@...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:40 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors
6
Patrick,
My night shift starts at 10:00 pm and ends at 7:30 am.
nancy

-----Original Message-----
From: Winter, Patrick [mailto:pjw@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:40 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors


Just a wild thought to add, to see if an old problem is reoccurring, are any
of your shifts starting or ending exactly at midnight?
7
Patrick,

OK, I've studied it a bit closer. It mostly happens with
people whose shift ends at midnight. However for those who
are on a longer shift, their time _after_ midnight gets
thrown into indirect idle.

have fun,
John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Winter, Patrick [mailto:pjw@...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:40 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors
>
>
> Just a wild thought to add, to see if an old problem is
> reoccurring, are any of your shifts starting or ending
> exactly at midnight?
8
I received a call a few days ago from Wendy in Product Development at Epicor
and also have some more 'Clues" about this "bug" where the labor edit report
shows incorrect hrs, often exactly split in half. The difference from the
payroll hrs then shows as idle time if it does not get caught and corrected.


Epicor has closed the call on this because they are assuming that it is
related to situations where two forms of labor entry are being used at the
same time thereby making it look to the system like the person is on two
jobs at the same time. They say this can occur when a person does not clock
out and then manual labor entry is also done. Apparently Labor Entry does
not check to see if a person is clocked in while entries are being made and
it treats the person as being on multiple jobs at the same time. This
explanation was "clear as mud" to me too. So now, since they have stopped
working on finding the real cause, it is up to "users" to find a
reproduceable situation.

I have written several RB reports to dump all of the labor header and detail
records for a given employee on a date as well as everyone who worked on a
job/seq/oper on a date. These show that the labor hrs total is incorrect
(split in half) before the labor edit report is run. The reports are run
after Labor Edit is printed and splits are identified but before any
adjustments or labor entry is done. A couple more situations I have seen
for this bug are:

- Up until today's report if a person at any split hrs ALL the hours for the
day were split. Yesterday a person had an OK job then two with split hrs
then two more OK. So the All or Nothing theory goes out the window.

- I used to see more 2nd shift (3:15 to 11:45pm) cases but lately it has
been mostly 1st shift (6:30 - 3:00). So it clearly is not related to
exactly midnight. I also see it far more often on Setup records than
Production but it is on both as well as on Indirect where no job at all is
involved.

- Yesterday I confirmed a case where a person's records were all flagged as
"Data Collection = Yes" and had no manual labor entry done, any time, ever.
Her single method of labor record creation was Data Collection. This
completely contradicts the "explanation" given for closing the call.

- I have one person who seems to have this happen more often than others (a
setup guy) and I am running the employee labor details dump that I wrote
several times a day to see if it occurs before any other labor activities
are done. But because this does not happen every day it may take a week or
so of watching. I also want to see if they look OK all day and then
"change" when he goes home.

At this point I am aggressively collecting data and when I can make a very
clear case that Epicor has closed this prematurely I will present the
evidence to them and get this re-opened.

-Todd Caughey
Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.




-----Original Message-----
From: John Sage [mailto:jsage@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:20 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors


Patrick,

OK, I've studied it a bit closer. It mostly happens with
people whose shift ends at midnight. However for those who
are on a longer shift, their time _after_ midnight gets
thrown into indirect idle.

have fun,
John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Winter, Patrick [mailto:pjw@...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:40 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors
>
>
> Just a wild thought to add, to see if an old problem is
> reoccurring, are any of your shifts starting or ending
> exactly at midnight?



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9
Way to be a Tiger, Todd.
----- Original Message -----
From: Todd Caughey
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors


I received a call a few days ago from Wendy in Product Development at Epicor
and also have some more 'Clues" about this "bug" where the labor edit report
shows incorrect hrs, often exactly split in half. The difference from the
payroll hrs then shows as idle time if it does not get caught and corrected.


Epicor has closed the call on this because they are assuming that it is
related to situations where two forms of labor entry are being used at the
same time thereby making it look to the system like the person is on two
jobs at the same time. They say this can occur when a person does not clock
out and then manual labor entry is also done. Apparently Labor Entry does
not check to see if a person is clocked in while entries are being made and
it treats the person as being on multiple jobs at the same time. This
explanation was "clear as mud" to me too. So now, since they have stopped
working on finding the real cause, it is up to "users" to find a
reproduceable situation.

I have written several RB reports to dump all of the labor header and detail
records for a given employee on a date as well as everyone who worked on a
job/seq/oper on a date. These show that the labor hrs total is incorrect
(split in half) before the labor edit report is run. The reports are run
after Labor Edit is printed and splits are identified but before any
adjustments or labor entry is done. A couple more situations I have seen
for this bug are:

- Up until today's report if a person at any split hrs ALL the hours for the
day were split. Yesterday a person had an OK job then two with split hrs
then two more OK. So the All or Nothing theory goes out the window.

- I used to see more 2nd shift (3:15 to 11:45pm) cases but lately it has
been mostly 1st shift (6:30 - 3:00). So it clearly is not related to
exactly midnight. I also see it far more often on Setup records than
Production but it is on both as well as on Indirect where no job at all is
involved.

- Yesterday I confirmed a case where a person's records were all flagged as
"Data Collection = Yes" and had no manual labor entry done, any time, ever.
Her single method of labor record creation was Data Collection. This
completely contradicts the "explanation" given for closing the call.

- I have one person who seems to have this happen more often than others (a
setup guy) and I am running the employee labor details dump that I wrote
several times a day to see if it occurs before any other labor activities
are done. But because this does not happen every day it may take a week or
so of watching. I also want to see if they look OK all day and then
"change" when he goes home.

At this point I am aggressively collecting data and when I can make a very
clear case that Epicor has closed this prematurely I will present the
evidence to them and get this re-opened.

-Todd Caughey
Harvey Vogel Mfg. Co.




-----Original Message-----
From: John Sage [mailto:jsage@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:20 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors


Patrick,

OK, I've studied it a bit closer. It mostly happens with
people whose shift ends at midnight. However for those who
are on a longer shift, their time _after_ midnight gets
thrown into indirect idle.

have fun,
John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Winter, Patrick [mailto:pjw@...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:40 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors
>
>
> Just a wild thought to add, to see if an old problem is
> reoccurring, are any of your shifts starting or ending
> exactly at midnight?



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10
Todd,

Were you working with Wendy Peterson? If so I'll rattle her
cage a bit about closing the ticket.

thanks,
John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Caughey [mailto:caugheyt@...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:58 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors
11
Yes.

Also, for anyone else with this issue: We (Accounting and IS) were
discussing this issue this morning and were wondering about people seeing it
only on particular shifts. Is there any chance that those who see it only
for 2nd shift are doing labor entry as a batch once a day in the afternoon
when 2nd shift is active? If the problem really is a conflict between
labor entry and people clocking via data collection this might be a clue.

Pure speculation but if a person clocks off/on an activity exactly when a
labor entry is made it might set a flag somewhere (ActiveTrans logical?)
indicating that they are on two jobs at the same time. This might explain
some of the randomness. Can you tell I'm desperate and grasping straws? I
am going to try this in our test database today.

-Todd C.


-----Original Message-----
From: John Sage [mailto:jsage@...]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:07 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors



Todd,

Were you working with Wendy Peterson? If so I'll rattle her
cage a bit about closing the ticket.

thanks,
John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Caughey [mailto:caugheyt@...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:58 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors



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12
Todd,
I have a similar problem and have worked with Wendy on it. We had an
instance where the labor edit did not agree with the pay hours. We
ran another labor edit and the missing hours showed up. This
happened to two employees on the same shift. Sent the info to
Epicor. They ask for our data base. We sent them a copy after we had
corrected the error and deducted time from a previous period on that
record. We were told that we had some data from data collection and
other from labor entry and the system was working as designed. I
still have copies of the original labor edits and we do not believe
this was the case, because all of the data was from labor collection
and the system just did not print all of the time on the two employee
records. They did not have multiple log ins that we can tell and did
not split the time. We are watching very closely, but have not had
the same error since. We still believe that something is wrong with
data collection in ver 4.0 and are really wary about going to 5.O
which was scheduled for tomorrow. We are still fighting V 4.0 update
and don't want to jump into V 5.0 with all of the problems that we
see in the egroups. We think that marketing has taken over epicor,
to many bugs in each new release.



--- In vantage@y..., Todd Caughey <caugheyt@h...> wrote:
> Yes.
>
> Also, for anyone else with this issue: We (Accounting and IS) were
> discussing this issue this morning and were wondering about people
seeing it
> only on particular shifts. Is there any chance that those who see
it only
> for 2nd shift are doing labor entry as a batch once a day in the
afternoon
> when 2nd shift is active? If the problem really is a conflict
between
> labor entry and people clocking via data collection this might be a
clue.
>
> Pure speculation but if a person clocks off/on an activity exactly
when a
> labor entry is made it might set a flag somewhere (ActiveTrans
logical?)
> indicating that they are on two jobs at the same time. This might
explain
> some of the randomness. Can you tell I'm desperate and grasping
straws? I
> am going to try this in our test database today.
>
> -Todd C.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Sage [mailto:jsage@j...]
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:07 AM
> To: vantage@y...
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors
>
>
>
> Todd,
>
> Were you working with Wendy Peterson? If so I'll rattle her
> cage a bit about closing the ticket.
>
> thanks,
> John
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Todd Caughey [mailto:caugheyt@h...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:58 AM
> > To: 'vantage@y...'
> > Subject: RE: [Vantage] Labor Edit/Collection Errors
>
>
>
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