@timshuwy
Hi Tim,
Can you please provide an update and/or start some discussion ref Kinetic v Classic UI.
I have attempted to reach out to Epicor but have not managed to get any traction on an issue I would describe as ‘the elephant in the room’.
I have been a user and consltant on ERP for 12 years and in particular Epicor within Manufatcuring and have had some great successes by enabling users to access data allowing them to make key decisions at the right time every time.
For example Sales Order Entry screens display Quote related data, Historic Sales Order data, Profit margin data - all in one screen and most importantly the data is viewable and accessible without the user touching the mouse.
The replication of this screen in the Kinetic UI provides the same data but the user must scroll, click and move the mouse an exponentially amount more - this significantly slows the user down.
Can I ask what Epicor’s thoughts are on this key UI issue and what, if any, roadmap looks like to ensure that the Kinetic UI enhancement does not result in a significantly slower user experience.
standard apps: we have been doing additional refinement of the Kinetic apps running in a browser. Kinetic 2023.2 has much of this refining completed, and works very well. In fact, many of our new customers who purchase kinetic only see the web version, and when they DO see the old version, they strongly dislike it. So… i guess it comes down to what you get used to. Re Scrolling and clicking, we have significantly reduced this over the past few releases, and any testing should be done against 2023.2.
Dashboards: We recognize that your custom dashboards getting converted to Kinetic do not convert as nicely as you would like. If you go into App Studio, you do have the ability to create dashboards that look more like what you used to have, but it still takes some work to do so. We do have some work being done by the tools team to work on Dashboards.
I completely agree with @timshuwy here. Kinetic is a new canvas and while I understand that people are used to the older technology, I feel confident that as the new toolset matures and we master it, we’ll be able to do things we could only dream of in the Smart Client.
@rppmorris you can make your dashboard look pretty damn close to that.
You can use the Flex/Min Width property on the cards to put them side-by-side.
You can add tabs (or card stacks in 2023.2) to replicate that.
You can set the panels to expand at runtime, so they don’t have to click there.
I’m not really seeing anything in that visual that can’t be done in Kinetic in its current state.
Its been getting better but still everyone but hmwillet and a few others are caught on the back side of the learning curve. I am a 'Winforms baby" . You can cram a lot of good information in a screen with a little planning in Classic.
Takes a little more to get use to the Kinetic versions of Dashboards. I still don’t think you can get as much Data per Square Inch( DSI, a new term… ? ) out of Kinetic
The ‘power’ user can see all 1) Quote price break data 2) Historic Sales data 3) Profit Margin data 4) Part related data 5) Part image and more in one screen without moving the mouse.
I have a test environment 2023.2.6 and the same screen cannot (emphasis on cannot) be replicated without forcing the user to scroll, click and drag significantly more - thus slowing the user down.
I don’t beleive this is down to my inability to use the App Studio - but more the App Studio does not provide this functionality.
You state that Epicor “significantly reduced this over the past few releases” and I agree this is the case but comparing the Classic UI to Kinetic UI when using user productivity and/or user effectiveness as the yard stick - Epicor are missing the point - the new UI forces the user to perform less actions in the same time frame.
How do I sell this to my Company and my clients as an improvement that will eventually be forced upon them by Epicor?
@hmwillett - do you believe I can replicate this Dashboard or get “pretty damn close to that” using the Kinetic UI?
I hope I don’t come across as a disgruntled user who is frustrated at having to upgrade and learn a new way of working - this is not the point I am trying to make. The learning of a new toolkit is part of the handshake agreement when partnering with an ERP solution that is constantly evolving - I get this.
I vouch for Epicor within Manufacturing and believe it is a fantastic toolkit that can become a key building block for Companies to sustain and/or improve performance but for users that have a robust set of standard operating procedures built upon Classic UI Screens why would Epicor consider adopting a UI that prevents users from being as effective?
My goal with this post is to try and highlight to Epicor that in developing the Kinetic UI we must not lose sight of the positive aspects of the Classic UI and attempt to adopt these within the new platform. User experience and user effectiveness must be the key objectives for Epicor but I am worried they are not.
I agree that the new forms have grouped fields in a more meaningful way than the old forms. I also agree with both of you that the conversion process for converting existing dashboards to Kinetic is very generic and doesn’t leave one with a useable layout. But as Hannah as shown, it is possible to get to a useful app with Kinetic.
My point is that I might not associate effectiveness and/or user productivity with familiarity. Often people feel unproductive with a new tool, but as they spend time with it, as they did with the old tool, they eventually get back up to speed or even surpass the previous tool’s effectiveness. I imagine that most UX designers today wince when they look at our old dashboards. They are far from perfect, but they certainly are familiar.
The only thing that you’ll have a reduction in is, as Dean called it, “data per square inch.”
I can make the Kinetic dashboard look exactly like that, except the number of columns shown per grid. Unless you zoom the browser out which is an option unless you have an older user base; the old folks seem to complain about something called “bad eyesight.”
@Mark_Wonsil - I hope you are right “they eventually get back up to speed or even surpass the previous tool’s effectiveness”.
I hope someone at Epicor within the UI Development Team keeps a firm eye on the user experience because my initial experience and thoughts are - a user entering data using Kinetic UI v Classic UI in, for example Order Entry, will be significantly less effective.
I’d also be happy to test with this user forum over a Teams session or Zoom session - this way we can provide data to demonstrate.
The results would be a great advert for me and Epicor to factually tell users the new interface is x times quicker.
Would @timshuwy be interested in testing?
Would anyone be intereted in testing?
well, it appears that you have done some customizations to fit more data onto the screen. you can do the same thing with App studio, only those changes could be even easier…
for example, you can change the layout of the main panel card to a 5 or 6 column layout, and more data will fit on the screen (making it more dense). You can also zoom out the screen to show more. in the example below, I zoomed out to make the font the same size as you are showing in your example. Harder to read for older eyes, but the point is that you can put much more data into the screen if you want.
As @Mark_Wonsil said, it is not familiar to people who knew the old version… change is hard.
Back in the olden days, when I programmed entire ERP Systems in a GreenScreen version…
the UI was “easy” and everything had a place on the screen. Changing to a more modern “windows” UI was an radical change that many people had a hard time with. BUT over time, it became impossible to sell software if it had a greenscreen look
In today’s software environment, we are required to make software that is resilient to hardware change… able to run on a desktop, laptop, ipad, or iphone all without changing the UI… we are continually working towards that path, and have software that can actually do that. I would agree that the idea of entering an entire order on an iphone in Kinetic is not ideal, BUT it does work… try doing that on the old smart client.
@timshuwy - thank you for taking the time to put together such a comprehensive response - much appreciated.
One of my Epicor implementations was from ProMan, a GreenScreen ERP System running on a Pick system - that was a challenge in itself.
Power users were lightning quick using that interface - it was impressive.
Users migrated to Epicor 9 from ProMan with relative ease which looking back should have been more daunting than Classic to Kinetic.
The last point you make about entering an entire order on an iPhone is spot on to my point - it feels as though Epicor have created a UI capable of being deployed on any device when most of the time that flexibility is not required. Sales Orders, Purchase Orders, Jobs are raised by users sitting at a desk using a mouse and keyboard.
I will attempt to replicate my Order Entry screen and Job Management Dashboard and share within this post.
Does Epicor have a timeline when users must stop using Classic?
This is a discussion we have had on this forum a few times. @hkeric.wci is on board with you:
For some companies, the question eventually becomes:
“if we need high speed data entry, why are humans doing it?” and
“should humans enforce business rules or the software?”
I try to ask myself, should we spend time making manual data entry fast or do we think about alternative methods like we did with the typewriter and the word processor? These are the times we can look at opportunities to improve and not just replicate what we’ve always done.
In fact, as I am typing this, i am also attending a meeting to talk about deprecation plans for Classic.
We are still under our own self imposed rule that we will not deprecate the smart client without at least a one year warning in order for our customers to finish out all their migration of customizations to the browser based screens. Sooo… you do the math… we have not announced it, so you have AT LEAST one year (we normally make such announcements at Insights… again, you can do the math). Safe harbor statements and all are active here… we do not have any planned intentions to announce the deprecation fo the smart client at Insights 2024… again, do the math
Yes, Epicor did design a UI that is capable of being deployed on any device… but not only that… on any browser, which now allows Kinetic to run on non-windows devices… Apple products can now run Kinetic natively. Non-windows based tablets can now run Kinetic… all of this is due to the demands of the industry to become device independant, and the Browser is the only software that would be needed to do this. Browser First is the way to solve many of the issues…
BUT, when we move to the browser, we do have to follow the “rules” of the browser. Those rules dictate some of our abilities, and some of our limitations. Some things just have extra clicks due to extra security (downloading files for example). Browsers natively scroll. Browsers natively resize… we have to create an interface that works well, and I believe we are there.
Currently I have a test enviornment with 2023.2.6 deployed. I plan to redo my Customisations wihtin this environment - screen customisations and dashboards.
Would you recommend a different version to this for my works or is 2023.2.6 a solid enough platform.
On completion I will then upgrade from 2022.2.10 to 2023.2.6 and ‘encourage’ my users to migrate to web based Kinetic UI.
I would take the latest 2023.2 that is available, and then apply updates as they become available. Updates are very easy to apply, and are designed to be non-breaking updates. The mostly includes bug fixes or minor feature improvements.
Something I have always said: If you update to an older version, you are missing fixes that Epicor has already addressed… later you will call into support, you will often times be disappointed when they say “that is already fixed in version X”.
as I am typing this, i am also attending a meeting to talk about deprecation plans for Classic.