Is Epicor Cloud really not SaaS but just a hosted instance of Kinetic working like it was on Premise?

Kinetic ERP
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If this is true -
What is SaaS?
ChatGPT
SaaS stands for Software as a Service. It’s a model of software delivery where software is hosted remotely by a vendor or service provider and made available to customers over the internet. Instead of purchasing and installing software on individual computers or servers, users can access the software via a web browser or API, typically on a subscription basis. SaaS applications are centrally hosted and managed, allowing users to access them from anywhere with an internet connection, often eliminating the need for extensive hardware and software maintenance on the user’s end. Popular examples of SaaS include Google Workspace (formerly G Suite), Salesforce, Microsoft Office 365, and Dropbox.

I wanted to share my recent experience with Epicor Support, and I must say it’s left me quite concerned about the level of service we’re receiving as users of their software.

Recently, we encountered an issue where our database, copied from Live to the Third Environment, failed to execute essential functions such as MRP and Scheduling. Naturally, we reached out to Epicor Support to address the issue. However, the solution provided was far from satisfactory.

Instead of resolving the underlying problem, Epicor Support instructed us to run a Datafix to delete active transactions. Predictably, this did not resolve the issue; it merely removed tasks without addressing the root cause. During a remote session, we discovered a URL embedded in our system agent, which Support requested we delete. Unfortunately, as we are on the Cloud, this was not something within our control, necessitating intervention from the cloud team.

What concerns me even more is that this isn’t an isolated incident. We’ve encountered similar situations in the past where Epicor’s solution to issues within their own database/software is to instruct users to run Datafixes, effectively placing the burden of fixing their problems on us, the customers. This raises serious doubts about whether Epicor truly provides Software as a Service (SaaS) or merely remote hosting of databases.

In my view, if Epicor claims to offer a SaaS product, they should take responsibility for fixing issues within their software rather than expecting customers to troubleshoot and resolve them themselves. It’s akin to visiting a mechanic for car repairs only to be handed a screwdriver and told to fix the problem ourselves.

It’s high time Epicor reevaluated its approach and provided the level of service and support that customers expect and deserve. Until then, it might be more accurate for them to describe their offering as remote hosting rather than SaaS.

I urge fellow users to share their experiences and thoughts on this matter. Together, we can advocate for better service and accountability from Epicor.

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Bruce, while your frustrations are understandable, it’s crucial to recognize the significant differences in scale and economic power between Epicor and the tech giants you mentioned, such as Microsoft and Google. Microsoft and Google are behemoths in the tech world, with hundreds of thousands of employees and revenue streams that reach into the hundreds of billions. This scale allows them unprecedented resources in research and development, customer support, and infrastructure resilience that smaller companies simply cannot match. Even still if you ever try to contact them about a problem with their software (I have). You get the same run around, the same work arounds, and the same level of ignorance everywhere.

Epicor, though a leader in its own right within the ERP space, operates on a different scale. The economic reality is that the breadth and depth of support, including the speed of issue resolution and the resources allocated for customer service, are directly influenced by a company’s size and revenue. This doesn’t excuse poor service but it does help to frame our expectations realistically. This does not mean that Epicor isn’t a SaaS product; over the years Epicor has made leaps and bounds towards cloud native infrastructure going as far as their most recent forthcoming deployment into Azure KBS clusters.

When comparing Epicor’s support to that of Microsoft or Google, it’s like comparing a speedboat to an aircraft carrier; both are powerful in their own domains, but they operate very differently. Epicor’s smaller size might offer agility and the potential for more personalized service in some areas, but it also means that resource allocation might be tighter, especially for complex issues that require significant investment to diagnose and resolve.

Understanding these differences is key to setting realistic expectations and fostering a more productive relationship with service providers. It’s in recognizing these constraints that we can better appreciate the challenges faced and work together towards solutions that improve the service for all users.

Remember, the value of a SaaS offering isn’t just in its flawless operation but in its evolution in response to user needs and feedback. Let’s work towards fostering a productive dialogue with Epicor, emphasizing collaborative solutions over confrontation.

As for this, please don’t turn this post into a whine fest of other aggrieved users. It won’t help anything, if you are frustrated with the level of service you are receiving, the paying customer (Epicor’s) should raise those concerns and escalate the problem through the proper channels within Epicor, their CAM etc.

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I’ll add that all of this context and framing of expectations is why we should thoroughly understand whether going with a SaaS model is the best for our organization and also understand the caveats of SaaS, what it is and what it isn’t.

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well said Jose.

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Thanks @josecgomez.

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Is Epicor Cloud really not SaaS but just a hosted instance of Kinetic working like it was on Premise?

Technically if it wasn’t, it would be a completely different product from self-hosted Epicor, while still being remote hosting. I think it’s more accurate to think about it the other way around - on site Epicor is self-hosted Epicor SaaS. That’s honestly the right approach to SaaS in general, if it’s expected to work consistently with the self-hosted version.

The examples (edit) you’re ChatGPT is listing aren’t comparable in the context of the question because they don’t provide anything for self hosting their services. If Dropbox (for example) supported installing your own self-hosted instance of Dropbox, that would create the same product model as Epicor SaaS vs self-hosted.

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Inception GIF

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Thanks for not calling me out by name :rofl:

100% agree with everything you wrote and try to remember this in my most frustrated moments.

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Yes, but the essence of Bruce’s post was not about comparing Epicor to Microsoft / Google.

Does it really matter what we call it and whether that name aligns with ChatGPT’s definition?

Absolutely, and I think the question to ask is are “SaaS”/Cloud customers getting their moneys’ worth for the level of service they’re getting?? I’m not sure they are but I have little frame of reference. I’m curious how other SaaS ERPs are doing in this regard.

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@LarsonSolutions - Does your customer utilize the Epicor surveys when an EpiCare case is closed? If something wasn’t handled well, by all means use the survey to report it. I’ve always gotten a call back from a manager to try to better understand a poor score.

Don’t be afraid to escalate a case if required.

There’s also the sr management escalation list available on EpiCare.

I get the frustration with datafixes vs figuring out the root cause. We’ve got several like that (multicompany sync, cough!) where I need to request a new datafix every 6 weeks when they expire. Nobody’s been motifivated to figure out the root cause, so they keep giving us a data fix.

When we submit a case to EpiCare, it’s because something isn’t working properly, and we’ve exhausted our internal resources to troubleshoot. The most frustrating ones are when something can’t be replicated at will, and only happens X% of the time. Support doesn’t know what to do with that, if they haven’t seen it before and documented a fix, so we get the usual process of try base, disable BPM’s, try web browser instead of classic, etc. That methodology doesn’t work when it’s 5 issues out of 1000 sales orders / week that don’t work properly.

Epicor was also selling priority support as an add-on. Not sure how many folks here use it, but it could theoretically get you to a tier 2 analyst and bypass the less experienced people. Would it help?
¯_(ツ)_/¯

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Just a note here as someone who is new to Epicor (read 11 months). I am amazed at how buggy Epicor is, and it’s not something that I say lightly, but rather as somebody who has been in the industry and software world for a very long time with programming experience as well.

Kinetic has numerous quality issues that are just glaring; but, I do realize the potential that Epicor has and am still happy in our investment with Kinetic.

We have the on-premise version, we would be considered a smaller manufacturing company. We do have a developer on staff and he is impressed by the freedom to code that Epicor offers, but we also have numerous cases open where we are spelling out developer bugs that they have subsequently confirmed -in which we are awaiting them to fix them (these are holding us up greatly.)

I am more than frustrated with getting this up and running, it is more akin to 10 steps forward and 9 steps back, rather than 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. Meaning, we are making process, but the time to make it is costing us and, really unwarranted, as more often than not, we are running into a bug or something that should “just really be.”

Please realize I’m not complaining, but there is a real company cost here. If we didn’t have our integrator ($$$), a developer on staff, a dedicated team working 90% on Epicor all of the time (and access to Epiusers, the regular Epiccare support, and other forums) -I imagine many companies would be very upset about the situation…

I VERY much am looking forward to the 2024 release and the bug fixes that come out of it, some of those fixes will be from our cases.

I’m old enough to remember that Windows 95 was the biggest “beta” of all time, and Windows 98 mainstreamed/fixed much of it (not saying it was the greatest OS)… Kinetic reminds me of this…

Also, I have nothing but gratitude for ALL of you Epiusers, thank you!!!

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Echoing this as someone new to Epicor (and to ERP in general … 6 months) - I am impressed at how complex the system is, plus the freedom of customization that is available to those willing to put in the work!

That also emphasizes the importance of getting our support requests to the correct team - so they have a chance of even know what we’re talking about, and might have some experience with our issues.

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I truly appreciate the valuable feedback I’ve received from everyone.

In reflecting on my approach to writing this week’s post, I’ve come to realize that transitioning to the cloud doesn’t necessarily alleviate the need for customers to have access to technical resources, whether internally or externally.

Having worked with the cloud since 2015, starting with my first customer, I’ve witnessed its significant evolution. The transition to browser-based accessibility is poised to greatly enhance companies’ ability to harness Kinetic’s capabilities.

One valuable lesson I’ve gleaned from the comments is the importance of adjusting my expectations regarding Epicor’s issue resolution process. Rather than expecting immediate fixes akin to a corner garage repair, it’s clear that thorough testing and troubleshooting prior to submitting a ticket is essential. Epicor requires us to identify the issue and then seek their assistance in finding the solution.

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@utaylor well said.

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