I agree with you Bruce. Crystal is OK - but I can (and have) written many complex user interactive applications in Excel using SQL. Crystal is a nothing more than a report generation environment - a very good one - but still just a reporting tool.
Don't write off Progress yet. After reading their (free pdf) 1000 pg programming guide when we were still piloting, it is clearly an extremely rich language (in some cases superior to MS-SQL). It is a useful guide to have around when trying to concoct complex BAQs. BAQs also lend themselves to much cleaner integration into highly customized (optimized for YOUR processes) applications.
The problem lies with Epicor's decision to severely hamper that potential power with the lame BAQ editor provided. (Even lamer than the VB.net customization environment provided - and that is setting a very low bar to compare to indeed... The old AT&T unix C editor in the 80's was a more productive tool than the Vantage VB environment - and free.)
I understand base products usually are dumbed-down a bit (so they can upsell to 'luxury models' - But Epicor themselves offer nothing to upgrade to (even for more $'s) to take advantage of the true potential of Progress. You have to buy those tools directly from Progress (and they aren't cheap - nor do they offer any Vantage 8 specific insight or help).
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of historical understanding by most software companies about what really sells products: Essentially free, GOOD, well documented programing environments and enhancement support tools.
Examples:
Microsoft - Interpreted basic on old 8086 MS-DOS boxes, Visual Basic in the 90's, SQLserver, Access, VbScript (with Office) & Visual Studio today.
Sun: Java, Java everywhere. (Sun's business strategy error was in battling MS on the O/S front and staying in the exotic hardware biz too long).
AT&T & Berkley UNIX: C was free and everywhere - and even MS was forced to support it - to the betterment of all. (Still everywhere with all the free C++ stuff with Linux).
Oracle & SAP: Not dirt cheap stuff but scalable beyond reproach - and you can practically trip over available, qualified, experienced programmers versed in them when walking down a street.
Epicor is really missing an opportunity to win new (and long term retain existing) customers as a result of their decision to provide such shoddy (seemingly PURPOSEFULLY shoddy), limited tools. VERY shortsighted of them. Better tools would also allow USERS to help Epicor help us in resolving bugs faster.
Rob
Don't write off Progress yet. After reading their (free pdf) 1000 pg programming guide when we were still piloting, it is clearly an extremely rich language (in some cases superior to MS-SQL). It is a useful guide to have around when trying to concoct complex BAQs. BAQs also lend themselves to much cleaner integration into highly customized (optimized for YOUR processes) applications.
The problem lies with Epicor's decision to severely hamper that potential power with the lame BAQ editor provided. (Even lamer than the VB.net customization environment provided - and that is setting a very low bar to compare to indeed... The old AT&T unix C editor in the 80's was a more productive tool than the Vantage VB environment - and free.)
I understand base products usually are dumbed-down a bit (so they can upsell to 'luxury models' - But Epicor themselves offer nothing to upgrade to (even for more $'s) to take advantage of the true potential of Progress. You have to buy those tools directly from Progress (and they aren't cheap - nor do they offer any Vantage 8 specific insight or help).
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of historical understanding by most software companies about what really sells products: Essentially free, GOOD, well documented programing environments and enhancement support tools.
Examples:
Microsoft - Interpreted basic on old 8086 MS-DOS boxes, Visual Basic in the 90's, SQLserver, Access, VbScript (with Office) & Visual Studio today.
Sun: Java, Java everywhere. (Sun's business strategy error was in battling MS on the O/S front and staying in the exotic hardware biz too long).
AT&T & Berkley UNIX: C was free and everywhere - and even MS was forced to support it - to the betterment of all. (Still everywhere with all the free C++ stuff with Linux).
Oracle & SAP: Not dirt cheap stuff but scalable beyond reproach - and you can practically trip over available, qualified, experienced programmers versed in them when walking down a street.
Epicor is really missing an opportunity to win new (and long term retain existing) customers as a result of their decision to provide such shoddy (seemingly PURPOSEFULLY shoddy), limited tools. VERY shortsighted of them. Better tools would also allow USERS to help Epicor help us in resolving bugs faster.
Rob
--- On Tue, 12/2/08, brucewbrannan <bruce.brannan@...> wrote:
From: brucewbrannan <bruce.brannan@...>
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Crystal vs. MS Access - Vantage 8.03.406a
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 2:39 PM
I hear you. When we went from 6.1 to 8.03 we decided to start with
a fresh database and only imported our Parts and Parts-Cost/Qty. I
created a couple Access databases that pulled in 1300 parts and ran
about 20 queries to massage fields to fit the 8.03 format. It took
a week of playing to get the queries working right but the end
result was a process that took about 10 seconds to create the
conversion templates. I don't see any degradation of performance on
the network or on the server either. The record-locking can be a
pain, however, especially when you try to run queries during busy
times.
The difference here is that I have lots of experience with MS
Access. I've taken a few classes on Access and have a shelf full of
Access books. I can Google just about any Access related problem
and come up with a solution. Progress (OpenEdge), on the other
hand, does not have the user base offering such luxuries. I'd love
to learn to do it all in BAQs but where's the help and guidance?
--- In vantage@yahoogroups .com, <lonwiksell@ ...> wrote:
>
> Not everybody recommends Crystal. I don't. After using Crystal
and
> Access extensively I quit using Crystal and now only use Access.
Our
> Quote, Order Acknowledgements and Invoices are quite complex since
our
> products are all custom built with some 200 configuration
options. Our
> Access Order Acknowledgement takes 66 queries to download the
Vantage
> data and build the report. It runs in 3 seconds or less.
>
>
>
> Our production schedule has 91 queries and takes 14 seconds to run.
> Access has given us the power to customize for efficiency with good
> response times.
>
>
>
> Lon A. Wiksell
>
> ROM Corporation
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On
Behalf
> Of brucewbrannan
> Sent: Monday, December 01, :39 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
> Subject: [Vantage] Crystal vs. MS Access - Vantage 8.03.406a
>
>
>
> We just transitioned from Vantage 6.1 to 8.03.406a. We had several
> flat files we were exporting out of 6.1. I've taken the Crystal
> Reports class and find it very nifty for writing reports but when
I
> need a simple .csv file out of Vantage I can't seem to figure out
how
> to do it. I can write the exact same queries and get the same data
but
> I can't find any option to export the data into a .txt or .dbf
file.
>
> Any tips? I'm resorting back to using MS Access via ODBC to get
our
> data. I'd like to use Crystal as everybody recommends but I've
found
> it has some limitations, especially when it comes to trying to
build
> and massage flat files to be passed on to other systems. Right now
I
> can connect to the tables but can't see any data. I guess tomorrow
> I'll be on the phone with Epicor's tech support.
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>